Lithium Orotate: Just a dietary supplement, not a drug at all, oh no.

May 16, 2008 at 4:56 pm 151 comments

This is one of the more irresponsible things I’ve seen recently:

Lithium. As a dietary supplement.

Lithium is a – perhaps the – mood stabiliser used in the treatment of bipolar disorder. It’s been used to treat mania since the 1970′s and is widely prescribed today. People who have been prescribed lithium usually have regular blood tests, because too much lithium can cause kidney damage and do bad things to the thyroid. Lithium’s useful and has saved lives, but it’s not a drug that should be treated lightly.

So how come it’s being sold like a multi-vitamin?

Oh, Dr. Nieper

For the answer we have to go back to the 1970′s and a German doctor called Hans Nieper. Nieper, who died in 1998, was known for his controversial methods of treating cancer, multiple sclerosis and heart disease. using large doses of vitamins, minerals and various extracts, he theorised that combining drugs with specific acids – which he called “mineral transporters” – could more effectively deliver the drug in the patient’s body.

Many drugs need to be in the form of a salt to be stable. Lithium, the kind that actual doctors prescribe, is usually in the form of lithium carbonate. The lithium molecule is combined with a molecule of carbonic acid, to form lithium carbonate. It would be unwise to take pure lithium as adding lithium to water results in what chemists like to call a “brisk exothermic reaction”. To put it another way, you’d end up with no tongue.

The orotate form of lithium replaces the carbonic acid with orotic acid. Nieper believed that combining a mineral like lithium with orotic acid would mean that the drug would be released only inside cells. His own description of this process can be found here.

Saying that Nieper’s approach is outside the mainstream is a little like saying that Las Vegas is on the outskirts of New York. In 1990 the US Office of Technology Assessment prepared a report for Congress on unconventional cancer treatments. Four years before, the FDA had banned the importing of drugs produced by Dr. Nieper:

More than 75 misbranded and unapproved drugs prescribed by Nieper have been detected in mail and personal baggage importations. These are directed to patients who may have been referred to the Nieper clinic by promotional groups in Wisconsin and California, including the recently established Hans A. Nieper Foundation. FDA has advised these groups that they should correct any materials they send out that suggest drugs prescribed at the Nieper clinic can be legally shipped to the United States.

The American Cancer Society reports that the Nieper cancer therapies include the discredited amygdalin (laetrile) and such other unproved substances as Iscador, fresh cell therapy and wobe-mugos enzyme. The American Heart Association says the drugs reportedly used for his cardiovascular treatments include bromelain, carnitine, selenium, magnesium orotate and potassium orotate—for which “there are no significant data indicating that any of these drugs are efficacious.” The American College of Cardiology strongly warns against any use of unapproved drugs for treatment of cardiovascular disease, adding that lithe FDA review process has done much to protect the American people from exposure to unsafe and ineffective drugs.”

And the National Multiple Sclerosis Society advises that the calcium products, including calcium aminoethyl phosphate or CaEAP, frequently prescribed as part of an expensive program of massive drug intake and special diets “has not been demonstrated to be effective in controlled experiments. II The German Multiple Sclerosis Society, according to its counterpart here, strongly advises against the treatment methods of Dr. Nieper.

In a 1981 advisory, the National Multiple Sclerosis Society emphasized that “when a physician makes a claim of producing a clinical improvement in MS, that physician has a moral and professional responsibility to prove scientifically the specificity of the treatment.” Nieper had by then been making claims about multiple sclerosis for more than a decade and had not yet—and still has not—been willing or able to demonstrate the effectiveness of his therapies to other scientists.

(from Quackwatch)

This is, incidentally, why in the USA lithium orotate is marketed as a dietary supplement rather than a drug. Since 1994, the FDA has (by law) regulated dietary supplements as foods rather than drugs. Whereas a drug has (in theory at least) to be shown to be safe and effective in order to be legal, dietary supplements are banned only if they’re shown to be unsafe. Marketing lithium orotate as a dietary supplement is clearly nonsensical and mendacious, it’s the same drug in lithium orotate as in lithium carbonate, the only possible difference is in how the drug is metabolised in the body.

Other Evidence (such as it is)

Lithium orotate is not entirely without an evidence base, although it’s a staggeringly small one. Nieper’s original study was published in 1973. Then three studies on rats were carried out by various people until the end of the 70′s. The first showed no difference between lithium in its carbonate, orotate or chloride forms. A later study involving the same author found that lithium orotate caused kidney problems (although a very large dosage of lithium was used, so it’s unclear how significant this finding is). Between these two studies, a different group of scientists found different results, concluding that “These data suggest the possibility that lower doses of lithium orotate than lithium carbonate may achieve therapeutic brain lithium concentrations and relatively stable serum concentrations.”

Later on in the 80′s, a study involving 105 alcoholic patients (63 of whom dropped out before the six month study was completed) who were treated using lithium orotate and various Nieper-influenced mineral supplements concluded that “Lithium orotate therapy was safe and the adverse side effects noted were minor, i.e., eight patients developed muscle weakness, loss of appetite or mild apathy.”

Finally, last year a case report of a young woman who had overdosed on lithium orotate supplements (which bore the embarrasingly hideous name of “Find Serenity Now”) was published in the Journal of Medical Toxicology. She developed a mild tremor. The authors conclude that “Over-the-Internet dietary supplements may contain ingredients capable of causing toxicity in overdose. Chronic lithium toxicity from ingestion of this product is also of theoretical concern.”

This is not a lot of information to go on. There’s Nieper’s odd and scientifically dubious theories about orotates, a few studies which don’t shed much light on whether lithium orotate actually behaves very differently than lithium, a limited study on alcoholics that doesn’t really prove much either way and someone who overdoses and develops mild symptoms. Frankly, anyone deriving any certainty from this tiny slice of knowledge is crazy. Or trying to sell you something.

Selling Lithium

So, we already know why lithium orotate is sold as a dietary supplement (selling it as the drug it obviously is would incur the wrath of the FDA). But look at the marketing that some of these vendors use. For example, the horribly named Find Serenity Now:

Serenity™ is an all-natural, effective mood enhancer. It promotes a natural balance to moods and emotions. Serenity™ does not lower energy levels and has no known side effects. Serenity™ changes peoples’ lives for the better every single day.

A key step in producing Serenity™ is our advanced ‘Micro Vortex Enteric Coating’. This is a required process of Urban Nutrition’s authentic formula, ensuring that the stomach acids are by-passed so the Orotate can carry the natural Lithium and release it within the cells where it is utilized as a trace mineral in the body.

The combination of the Orotate mineral carrier and our Micro Vortex Enteric Coating manufacturing process make Serenity™ a natural & effective product. This provides optimal absorption and there is little or NO excess lithium left in the body. Research has demonstrated that this does NOT raise the lithium levels in the blood at all or in any significant way. Therefore, toxic levels of Lithium are not an associated problem with Serenity™.

You’ve seen the total extent of research into lithium orotate. Do you think these claims reflect the facts in any way? But that’s OK, because Serenity™ can help you if you have occasional mood swings, could use a boost in your spirits, your marriage suffers from unstable emotions, you’d like a natural mood enhancer, you long to find the person you deserve to be, or even if PMS or menopause feels like a curse.

No mention of actual medical disorders there, so that’s all right then. Still, I do have one question: Who the hell takes lithium in order to find the person they “deserve to be”?

Another lithium orotate supplement Symmetry Homeopathic Spray from HBC Protocols™ seems a little more bold in its claims to:

Oh, that bit about being FDC/NDC (National Drug Code) Registered? That’s a bit of regulatory fluff. The FDA maintains a database of drug products. It publishes a database of prescription drugs and insulin products (which Symmetry, being neither, doesn’t appear on). You submit your product’s data to the FDA and they give you a number. Implying that this is some kind of mark of approval is like me saying that the UK government approves of me because hey, I have a national insurance number.

No, I’m not sure what makes it a homeopathic spray either.

They also say:

If you cannot tolerate higher doses of lithium due to side effects you might try replacing it with lithium orotate. It requires no blood tests and side effects are pretty much non-existent. It is non-prescription and even at lower doses is just as effective as much higher doses of the prescription forms of lithium.

Strong claims, especially given the incredibly limited amount of evidence for lithium orotate. And isn’t it kind of irresponsible to recommend that people who are taking lithium (who will almost certainly have been prescribed it) should switch from an approved form of the drug to a form that was last studied with any seriousness in the 1970′s?

Come back FDA, all is forgiven

These aren’t the only places selling lithium orotate while implying that it’s a great replacement for your regular lithium. There’s hundreds of alternative medicine places online that seem to be at it. It seems stunningly irresponsible to me and I’m mildly surprised that the FDA haven’t been around with their big hammer of regulation. I don’t approve of everything the FDA do (then again, it’s not like I have to care – I’m English), but isn’t this precisely what the FDA is for?

They do appear to have stopped a shipment of Chinese-produced lithium orotate from entering the USA in January on the basis that it’s an unapproved drug, but these ‘dietary supplements’ are still available.

There appears to be at least one UK company that sells the drug, too.

Lithium is a powerful drug and even if you believe the unsupported assertion that the orotate salt is miraculously side-effect free, anyone taking it probably needs to do so under the supervision of someone who knows what they’re doing, what lithium toxicity looks like and is able to evaluate whether the stuff is working or not. This is true for lithium carbonate and I’d say it was even more important for this stuff to be in place when we’re talking about a mostly untested variant with such a small evidence base.

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Cleaning Out My Closet AGH! WASP!?

151 Comments Add your own

  • 1. adifferentvoice  |  May 16, 2008 at 6:13 pm

    Although I try, I never really understand the pharmaceutical posts … but I’d love to know what subject your first degree was in. Don’t you think you might tell us?

    Also wondered if you were getting The Guardian this week. If only for all the supplements of songs scored for the guitar that came free … Absolutely no use or interest to me or my family, but I imagined lots of guitar devotees falling on them with glee.

  • 2. experimental chimp  |  May 16, 2008 at 8:01 pm

    adifferentvoice: Basically, some companies are selling a type of lithium which they claim works better without a whole lot of evidence to back it up, and without any doctors being involved. I consider this a bad thing.

    I haven’t been getting the Guardian. But that’s only because there’s lots of great stuff available online if you know where to look. I’m still trying to master my very first song and I’m spending quite a lot of time practicing scales and trying to bend my fingers into the shape of chords. Justin Guitar is really good and it even has videos, which is helpful.

  • 3. experimental chimp  |  May 16, 2008 at 10:07 pm

    Oh, and without being too specific, my degree was in the general area of politics.

  • 4. Gabriel...  |  May 17, 2008 at 10:50 am

    I’m surprised this hasn’t happened earlier and more often… maybe they’ll put Lithium back into 7Up.

    it’s my understanding that as long as something is sold as a dietary supplement and not making medical claims* (re: cures) the FDA and Health Canada will not prevent its sale unless there’s proof it can harm someone. The China thing could have been political, or a bad batch or bad labelling (promising a cure).

    I think I remember hearing something recently about Health Canada taking a stronger regulatory role on supplements, but I can’t find anything online right now…

    I do know a fairly recent Health Canada decision is forcing supplement manufacturers to be honest with their ingredients, which is an important and blindingly obvious step that very few governments have taken.

    Here: Codex and the Availability of Vitamin and Mineral Supplements in Canada

    *”Symmetry may also assist other depression treatments treatments associated with symptoms of depression, stress, and mania…”

  • 5. Nathan Harris  |  May 17, 2008 at 5:57 pm

    Amazing that any mood stabilizer could be sold as a diet aid.

  • 6. Cindy  |  June 5, 2008 at 11:50 pm

    Facts: The US has always been behind in the field of medicine compared to the other countries. 1 in 3 commericals are for prescription drugs. We have health care costs when we should have universal health care coverage. I believe in doing tests on everything, however, the government is in bed with the healthcare industry. Most US trained doctors are about finding a drug to take care of the symptoms not trying to find a cause and cure. I believe in traditional and alternative health care. Why put something down that may help someone. Everyone’s body is different. It also appears that the person writing the claim has never suffered anything traumatic in his life.

  • 7. experimental chimp  |  June 6, 2008 at 1:28 am

    Cindy: The deficiencies of US health care are neither here nor there. I’m not objecting to the sale of alternative medicines. I’m objecting to the way that something that is about as drug-like as you can get is being sold as a ‘nutritional supplement’ as a way to avoid regulation, and also the way that it’s marketed on the basis of very little evidence.

    You say you ‘believe in traditional and alternative health care’ – what does that actually mean? Do you believe that all alternative health-care is good? If not, what criteria do you use to distinguish between the bits you ‘believe’ in and the bits you don’t? What about the bits that contradict (the people selling ionic minerals are quite critical of the people selling chelated minerals, for example – both are part of the alternative medicine thing, which do you ‘believe’ in?

    I don’t claim that lithium orotate doesn’t work. It probably has similar effects to other lithium salts. My position is that people who take lithium should do so under medical supervision. Lithium is a reasonably serious drug and people taking it should have regular blood tests. People taking it for psychiatric conditions should have some form of psychiatric contact.

    Some people claim that the orotate form of lithium has no side effects or very few side effects. There is very little evidence to back this up. I think it’s irresponsible to make claims like this in the absence of convincing evidence. I also think it’s irresponsible to sell a substance that is clearly a drug as if it’s a ‘nutritional supplement’

    I’m not sure who you’re referring to when you say “It also appears that the person writing the claim has never suffered anything traumatic in his life”. If you’re talking about me, then you might want to read a bit more of this blog before making a statement like that. Then again, I’d quite like to know how me being traumatised (or not) relates to this discussion.

  • 8. Gabriel...  |  June 6, 2008 at 2:06 am

    Well, I always thought you’ve had a pretty easy time of it…

    “The US has always been behind in the field of medicine compared to the other countries.”

    That’s just silly.

    “…irresponsible to sell a substance…nutritional supplement”

    Seriously, just slap ‘nutritional supplement’ on a bag of heroin and you could sell it out of a street-corner kiosk in Canada or America.

  • 9. experimental chimp  |  June 6, 2008 at 2:54 am

    Oh come on. Today I was reduced to playing the original Quake to stave off boredom and after I finished the second world, I realised I hadn’t saved properly and I’d have to play through the first world again. If that’s not traumatic, I don’t know what is.

    Seriously, just slap ‘nutritional supplement’ on a bag of heroin and you could sell it out of a street-corner kiosk in Canada or America.

    I’m sure that’s happened. Probably in Haight-Ashbury. Mmmm. China white nutritional supplements.

  • 10. Patrick McGean  |  July 12, 2008 at 11:25 pm

    Lithium is a mineral.
    An Experimental Chimp is a caged primate destined for
    autopsy to prove what some a chemical or drug does when
    used improperly, rats and mice are used to demonstrate
    positive results.
    When in carbonate form Lithium is a drug but still a mineral, the problem with lithium carbonate is it has demonstrated kidney disease since it first use ( 1946 ) as described in Feve’s book “Moodswing.” Why we are lithium deficient is the question never asked. Linus Pauling has stated that mineral deficiencies could be the cause of our “modern diseases.” Mania and “biopolar” disorders have been evident even in Biblical accounts. Sodium enables Lithium in the same manner that Sulfur enables Oxygen yet many practitioners limit sodium intake with lithium. The problem with any drugs for mood disorders is they don’t present the monetary motive to research them effectively, Depakote and other anti convulsive drugs are being prescribed for mania because they cost more and in turn have 20% higher suicide rates than lithium. Too much lithium carbonate can cause the kidneys failure while too much lithium oratate has not demonstrated such side effects and does not require periodic blood levels.
    Certain alternative doctors
    have been prescribing oratate for 30 years with no observed
    side effects and no return to mania or depression when lithium
    levels are therapeutic. The FDA only knows what the drug companies tell them, and all of the Quack watches only report
    the negatives published by the mainstream medical / pharma-
    ceutical complex. Artificial compounds, such as aspirin will kill anyone at a certain does yet no one has died from chewing
    white willow bark in the same amounts ( theory never tested )
    but Aspirin was the first patented drug and began the synthetic
    march of the drug companies for the sake of profits before any
    concerns for our health.
    What DRUG has ever cured a disease?
    Drugs treat symptoms, if mania is due to a mineral
    deficiency then supplementing that mineral may still be only a treatment but with oratate no life threatening side effects have
    been demonstrated. Artificial or bovine Insulin in 1937 shut down research into the actual cause of having to “urinate constantly,” but the artificial and oral meds have created new side effects which can kill, diabetes never killed until we began
    replacing the insulin with non human or artificial compounds.
    Avandia should come to mind.

    If it was time to pick a baseball team, sorry I forgot you are a
    Brit so a Cricket team I believe I would choose
    Dr Hans Nieper over an Experimental Chimp, I would also
    choose Dr. Abrham Hoffer over any pill dispensing shrink since
    he seems interested in curing not just prolonging treatment.
    Lithium is a mineral, not having it in your system could be why
    you don’t sleep. The same could be said for sulfur also a
    mineral which I believe you are also deficient.
    All levity aside Dr Linus Pauling earned two Noble prizes,
    I could not find any listed for any Experimental Chimp or any
    members of the FDA.
    Modern medicine is profit driven our health should come before
    profits Your comment about Haight-Ashbury demonstrates your ignorance about what can be had on the street in the
    Americas, please refer to the Boxer Rebellion about how heroin
    ever entered the world market. LSD is what the Haight was known for an when made by Ousley without speed it was purer than what Sandoz made pharmaceutically, reference the “Kool Aid Acid Test” by Ken Kesey.
    If you are in fact bipolar or manic how many friends do you have? Real friends? It is one of the little tests for mania.

    You may find the following link of interest, being smarter than
    the average 5th grader can often be a problem when most of
    our friends are still thinking as 3rd graders.

    http://www.encognitive.com/bipolar/healing-depression-and-bipolar-without-drugs-2007-oct-13.html

    Patrick McGean
    Director
    Live Blood and Cellular Matrix Study
    Body Human Project

  • 11. experimental chimp  |  July 13, 2008 at 1:22 am

    Thank you Patrick. That was fascinating.

    Lithium is a mineral.

    Yes? And?

    When in carbonate form Lithium is a drug but still a mineral,

    You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. A mineral is “an element or chemical compound that is normally crystalline and that has been formed as a result of geological processes”. The highly toxic element thallium has several mineral forms. The existence of a mineral of a given element has nothing to do with its desirability as something to ingest.

    the problem with lithium carbonate is it has demonstrated kidney disease since it first use ( 1946 ) as described in Feve’s book “Moodswing.” Why we are lithium deficient is the question never asked. Linus Pauling has stated that mineral deficiencies could be the cause of our “modern diseases.”

    I can state that the descreasing numbers of pirates in the world could be the cause of our “modern diseases”. Arr, thar be diseases can be cured by walking the plank, me lily-livered landlubber. Arr! Thar be too much soft living and not enough wenches for a salty old sea-dog to keep body and soul together! Arr! The fact that I can state this doesn’t make it true. Conventional medicine – you know the stuff, it’s the branch of medicine that gives a damn about evidence and effectiveness – has comprehensively rejected Pauling’s ideas about minerals.

    Depakote and other anti convulsive drugs are being prescribed for mania because they cost more and in turn have 20% higher suicide rates than lithium.

    Bzzt! The world is not America. Here we have universal health care. By and large the UK medical establishment has no interest in prescribing costly drugs. Indeed, they avoid it wherever possible. Just because your medical system is broken doesn’t mean that everyone else’s is broken in the same way.

    Too much lithium carbonate can cause the kidneys failure while too much lithium oratate has not demonstrated such side effects and does not require periodic blood levels.

    Ahem:

    Nieper’s original study was published in 1973. Then three studies on rats were carried out by various people until the end of the 70’s. The first showed no difference between lithium in its carbonate, orotate or chloride forms. A later study involving the same author found that lithium orotate caused kidney problems (although a very large dosage of lithium was used, so it’s unclear how significant this finding is).

    That’s the entirety of the reputable research on lithium orotate, by the way.

    Artificial compounds, such as aspirin will kill anyone at a certain does yet no one has died from chewing
    white willow bark in the same amounts ( theory never tested )

    And yet deaths from the ingestion of foxglove, a plant formerly used by herbalists, happen.

    What DRUG has ever cured a disease?

    You have heard of antibiotics, right?


    diabetes never killed until we began replacing the insulin with non human or artificial compounds.

    Insulin was introduced in 1923 (incidentally, it was not patented). Do you think maybe that changes in people’s diets could account for the increase in diabetes and resulting deaths?


    All levity aside Dr Linus Pauling earned two Noble prizes,

    Sure. One in chemistry (for his research into the nature of the chemical bond) and the Nobel Peace Prize in 1962 (for his campaign against nuclear weapons testing). You’ll note that he didn’t receive a Nobel Prize in medicine. Expertise – even genius – in one field does not confer expertise in another.

    Modern medicine is profit driven our health should come before profits

    Oh no! Profits are evil!

    Do you happen to have a plan for making our health come before profits? How exactly will that work? Who will fund the research? Will that research lead to better treatments than the current system does? Why?

    Your comment about Haight-Ashbury demonstrates your ignorance about what can be had on the street in the
    Americas

    Does it really?

    The Haight-Asbbury Medical Clinic in San Francisco has documented this trend. It opened a special section for heroin addicts in November 1967, and by November 1969 it had seen nearly 1,000 heroin users, almost all of whom were addicted. (Since national drug styles tend to be set first in the Haight-Ashbury, the increased use of heroin surfaced there a little earlier than in most other communities.) Of the addicts served by the clinic, about 25 percent (classed as old-style junkies) had first used heroin before January 1964; about 20 percent (classed as transitional junkies) first used heroin between then and January 1967; and the remaining 55 percent or so were “new junkies,” who began to use heroin after January 1967.

    The Consumers Union Report on Licit and Illicit Drugs.

    But hey, thanks for playing.

  • 12. Gabriel...  |  July 13, 2008 at 1:52 am

    Seriously… you get all the best spam.

    Dec. 22, 2005
    “The mayor of Salt Lake City filed an injunction in 3rd District Court Wednesday intended to prevent a man who has issued threats from having any contact with him.

    “The ex parte civil stalking injunction asks the court to prohibit Patrick McGean, 59, from coming onto the grounds of Washington Square and entering the City-County Building or the mayor’s residence or from coming within 1,000 yards of the mayor at any time.

    “Mayor Rocky Anderson states in the filing that he was advised by police that McGean “has a history of violence and poses a direct threat of serious bodily harm to him and his staff.””

  • 13. experimental chimp  |  July 13, 2008 at 2:33 am

    Ah, so I’ve just pissed off a violent and unstable person. Great. Still, I can take some small comfort in the fact that he’s thousands of miles away.

  • 14. Rosanna  |  July 22, 2008 at 8:02 pm

    Dear E.C.
    I appreciate your summaries of the problems with taking lithium as I was about to embark on my own experiment (unmonitored of course) with a “supplement”. For your particular problems, I highly recommend that you engage in a minimum of 4-5 hours a week, preferably 7, of heavy, aerobic exercise. This regimen will completely transform your metabolism and potentially alleviate many of your symptoms. Of course, diet and exercise are an old-school drill. I would also suggest elimination of all alcohol, caffeine, and refined carbs. Pretty boring stuff, but you will feel better.
    Cheers!

  • 15. experimental chimp  |  July 22, 2008 at 9:23 pm

    Thanks Rosanna. I’m currently feeling really good with my Lamictal and folic acid combo.

  • 16. Ryan  |  August 16, 2008 at 1:20 am

    Interesting site….well I have been on zoloft for 11 years and it seems the dose goes up and up. I am not fully convinced that giant pharmacueticals are anymore objective in there studies as some on this site propose.Marketing by parmacueticals and supplement manufactures all seem to make inflated claims to make money. Instead of increasing my zoloft once more I decided to try supplements. one supplement is a b vitamin mixture, inositol and one lithium aspartate a day. Even if it is placebo effect and it works who cares It comes to maybe 25.00 a month and gives a little hope with no side effects at low doses. Megadoses of things is dangerous in my book but the amounts taken can’t do harm. Finally, perhaps one reason supplements are not studied, like drugs, is there is no or little funding for the use of supplements. There is no motive to study a supplement that one cannot get a patent for and as a result make lots of money. While some drugs are good l, there maybe some supplements that work too. Chinese medicine has shown to work for thousands of years and what about native peoples use of herbs that seem to worked for thousands of years as well. The point is pharmocuetical drugs are generrally good but supplements should not be pooped on. Money seems to be the main factor on why they are not heavily studied like pharmacueticals

  • 17. mastershay  |  August 16, 2008 at 3:29 am

    I got tired of being jerked around by doctors and pills and went on my own research crusade and basically ended up where I am now (recovering, hopefully).

    My main problem with antidepressants is the fact that some of the side-effects seem to have been more permanent in my case. Specifically, my testosterone was lowered and sex drive affected. Have been off of the pills for two years now.

    I’ve been taking lithium orotate for three months now. I’ll let you guys now when my kidneys explode, or when I finally recover from this whole mess, whichever comes first. So far so good, at least for me. My mood remains flat, but it keeps me functioning for the time being, the depression remains hidden. Only side effect so far was minor twitching in my thigh when I first started, so like a genius I lowered the dosage and it went away. It’s nice to be able to take care of myself like this without a middleman, though it’s shame that the dumbness of a few ruin it for all eventually.

    Note: the brand does matter. I have tried three and am sticking with one.

    This is all temporary. My real goal is to fix the root of all this, which is what I have been engaged in since May. Involves hair tissue testing, mineral balancing, sauna, diet, etc. I am seeing someone for this, though I have used two years of constant searching and research to properly judge that this is what I think will work. I went this route because the research behind it makes sense, and it’s the only method I’ve come across that actually fixes anything. If anyone is interested, just search for Analytical Research Labs, Paul Eck, and Dr. Lawrence Wilson.

    Just my 2 cents. I have about 2 million cents to spare for this topic, but this should be good for now.

  • 18. experimental chimp  |  August 16, 2008 at 3:54 am

    Lithium aspartate is almost the exact same drug as lithium carbonate, which you won’t find in the health-food shops because it’s a prescription-only medication. There’s some research that suggests lithium can be useful as a stand-alone medication for depression, though it’s more commonly used as an adjunct to an anti-depressant. So yes, your lithium aspartate could be helping your mood.

    But whether it works or not is beside the point. Lithium, whether you wrap it in the rather under-researched aspartate coating or put it in the more traditional carbonate (or sometimes citrate) form, is a serious drug. People taking lithium should have regular blood tests to make sure it’s not doing unspeakable things to their kidneys. And selling lithium as a supplement in whatever form, encouraging people to think of it and use it like a supplement is irresponsible.

    It’s not like I’m opposed to all supplements – I take a folic acid supplement every day. I don’t like the way that supplements are often marketed, but I don’t think the mere act of selling them is irresponsible. But calling lithium aspartate a supplement is nonsensical. It’s a legal fiction. Taking lithium without medical supervision, or at the very least regular blood tests is a bad idea. Encouraging people to do so is at best misguided and at worst mercenary.

  • 19. experimental chimp  |  August 16, 2008 at 11:55 am

    Oh, kidney damage is not something you can tell is happening until it starts to cause problems. That’s why people on lithium have blood tests to monitor kidney function. Changes in thyroid function, another potential side-effect of long-term treatment with lithium can also have pernicious effects.

    mastershay – You’re entitled to reach those conclusions (I would disagree with them – nutritional balancing seems to be pseudo-scientific nonsense – but you’re certainly entitled to them). However, there is little difference between using lithium orotate that you’ve purchased from a supplement manufacturer, using lithium carbonate that you’ve purchased from an online pharmacy and using lithium that you’ve been suprised. Except, of course, that in only one of these case do you receive the medical advice and monitoring that makes using lithium safer.

  • 20. Gabriel...  |  August 19, 2008 at 12:57 am

    Something you might want to check out: here, take a look at the comments. It’s a good example of what I’ve been finding, the Lithium Orotate/self medication thing is coming mostly from the anti-medication/anti-psychiatry/pro-alien people. Lithium, it would seem, is a good thing Except when prescribed by a psychiatrist.

  • 21. experimental chimp  |  August 19, 2008 at 3:14 am

    Yeah, it’s bizarre. That of all things, the anti-medication people should pick lithium as their cure-all de jour. Like I say in the post, it’s been a fringe-medicine idea for a long time. There’s links to the whole nutritional balancing/micro-nutrients thing. There’s some really weird stuff out there if you look for it. Concentrated lake-water as a multi-vitamin, for example.

    The thing that really makes me wonder is this: The anti-psychiatry/anti-medication crowd seem so incredibly sceptical when it comes to mainstream medicine, and yet so credulous and trusting of the outrageous claims of people who are clearly either charlatans or fooling themselves.

  • 22. Gabriel...  |  August 19, 2008 at 4:10 am

    Lithium is safe for them to adopt as a treatment because it has almost nothing to do with “Big Pharma”. This way they can still say “psychiatrists are evil” because with Lithium Orotate supplements people can self-medicate. It also makes it easier, further down the line, to convince people to take Vitamin B or whatever instead of Lithium Orotate because hey, they’re both supplements but Vitamin B6 is easier on the kidneys.

    It’s mostly a reaction to the studies coming out over the past few years into the benefits of Lithium as a tool against manic depression. So…

    Then:
    “Lithium will burn out your kidneys”

    Now:
    “Sure Lithium works, everybody knows that. But you don’t need a psychiatrist, they’re evil.”

    And keep in mind the anti-psychiatrists/medications people are only two tiers away from the actual Co$. It’s the branch organizations the Co$ set up years ago, like Mindfreedom, that release these crazed statements about the evils of psychiatry, which the anti-psych blogs pick up and report on as Absolute Truth.

    It’s a fantastic communications strategy. There are over a hundred different Co$ front groups that drop the press releases and gather the information the anti-shrink blogs then report on.

    It really is incredible how this thing works…

  • 23. mastershay  |  August 20, 2008 at 5:41 am

    “The thing that really makes me wonder is this: The anti-psychiatry/anti-medication crowd seem so incredibly sceptical when it comes to mainstream medicine, and yet so credulous and trusting of the outrageous claims of people who are clearly either charlatans or fooling themselves.”

    There are a lot of blind people out there that preach the first thing they find. To be honest, I don’t like telling anyone the ways that I take care of myself, because it pushes me into that realm of weirdness that is associated with hippies health nuts, when I am just an average guy looking for a cure. I questioned everything multiple times and kept looking and keep looking, because I don’t claim to know the answer. I decided to post here because this is one of the only current topics on lithium orotate. If I find something that make sense and is generally safe, I’ll give it try in hopes that maybe it’s the answer (while under supervision of some sorts).

    I have very strong opinions when it comes to the whole pharmaceutical industry, but this is due to having experienced things first hand. I’m embarrassed by people who have to exclaim loudly that the industry is evil, because a) they have nothing better to do and make me look as stupid as them, and b) chances are they never had any experience and were just looking for some random evil to fight against. They could at least act more civil and educated about it. The same goes for the other side: why waste time on the subject in the first place if you aren’t directly involved?

    I am being monitored while on the lithium orotate, and am taking kidney herbs as well. If there was something else I could take, I would. Hopefully I can stop it within a few months. All I know is that it does work for me.

    By the way, how many people have died from lithium orotate compared to prescription medications? If I don’t respond then chalk up one confirmed. The only thing I saw listed above, other than supposed kidney failure, was twitching. How frightening.

    Gabriel: seriously? I’m not sure what I was supposed to be reading on your link, but what I saw was bickering back and forth about lithium in general, not to mention the fact that the article was written by a medical doctor. Not to mention that your argument loses all credibility when you have to throw in a phrase like “pro-alien people.” And your last post was just a giant assumption. Could have just asked me for my thoughts, though like I said, I am in the minority when it comes to thinking about these issues thoroughly and intelligently, at least when it comes to us “pro-alien people.”

    ….I was just looking for info on the safety of lithium orotate, but can only find one extreme side or the other….

  • 24. Gabriel...  |  August 20, 2008 at 6:10 am

    Nothing, “mastershay”, that I wrote was aimed at you or concerned you in the least. So yeah, in the name of Xenu, seriously.

  • 25. experimental chimp  |  August 20, 2008 at 2:14 pm

    mastershay – I’m glad to hear your use of lithium orotate is being monitored. My concern is for people who are more vulnerable than you, who aren’t going to be effectively monitor and aren’t as informed about their choices. You sound like you can look afer yourself, but there’s lots of people out there who (often because of their illness) aren’t able to do that. Regulating the marketing and sale of these kinds of substances isn’t really about protecting people like you and me, it’s about protecting people who are vulnerable to the overblown claims many of these supplement manufacturers make.

    In answer to your other question, although it does happen, fatal lithium overdoses are rare. Lithium carbonate’s a very widespread drug, whereas lithium orotate is used by a handful of people. I have no idea what the numbers are. I’d guess that for every user of lithium orotate there’s at least a thousand users of lithium carbonate. I don’t think it would be unreasonable to push that number up to 10,000. Accordingly, if lithium orotate has a similar level of toxicity to lithium carbonate, it may simply be that not enough people take it to make even a single fatal overdose a likely event.

    You say “I was just looking for info on the safety of lithium orotate, but can only find one extreme side or the other”. I’ve repeatedly stated that I don’t care whether lithium orotate is safe, dangerous, effective or ineffective. It’s probably no worse than lithium carbonate and might be slightly better. But the sad truth is: Nobody knows. I summarise the available research in the article:

    There’s Nieper’s odd and scientifically dubious theories about orotates, a few studies which don’t shed much light on whether lithium orotate actually behaves very differently than lithium, a limited study on alcoholics that doesn’t really prove much either way and someone who overdoses and develops mild symptoms. Frankly, anyone deriving any certainty from this tiny slice of knowledge is crazy. Or trying to sell you something.

    To be clear – my position isn’t that lithium orotate is dangerous (at least no more than lithium carbonate), but that selling it as a dietary supplement is. I don’t think that’s an extreme position.

  • [...] Fuçando aqui e ali, no WordPress tem uma matéria interessante do Experimental Chimp (o nome diz tudo). Vale a pena lê-la também. Aqui. [...]

  • 27. Ryan  |  October 11, 2008 at 10:19 pm

    AsI said in previous post I take lithium aspartate as a supplement and I see a doc. The 5mg dose is the equivlant of 25mg of lithium carbonate. Essentially one would have to take between 100 and 200 mg of lithium aspartate to be equivlant with Lithium carbonate. Kidney prolems can occur at toxic levels not from 5mg of li aspartate. Peoples claim that it’s a drug are just as bad as some of these advertisers. So my question is is Niacin( a b vitamin a drug) They use niacin to reduce cholesteral but yet its used as a supplement. However if you take too much of it iit can cause internal bleeding. So I suspect that Lithium is the same if you take too much of it(like lithium carbonate) you can get sick. However in lower doses I think it’s fine.

  • 28. experimental chimp  |  October 12, 2008 at 2:43 am

    Ryan – where exactly are you getting these figures from? 5mg aspartate is equivalent to 25mg carbonate? Who says? And based on what research? Searching in PubMed only returns these three papers.

    Also, the links between lithium carbonate, kidney disease and diabetes were uncovered by epidemiological research and animal studies. Since none of this research has been carried out on the aspartate, it’s impossible to say what kind of long-term effects it causes. Also, since post-market monitoring is not carried out on supplements, there’s no real way to know what short-term side effects there are – nobody collects this data.

    But to answer your question, the distinction between supplement and drug is a legal fiction. A drug is a substance taken into the body for the the purposes of treating or preventing disease. Nature doesn’t divide chemicals into drugs and supplements. A chemical is a drug when we use it like a drug. Niacin is a chemical. When you eat some chicken soup, it’s one of the many nutrients present. When you extract it and take it in the form of a pill or an injection, it’s a drug.

  • 29. jump, how high  |  October 22, 2008 at 2:43 pm

    Interesting discussion. There is a belief/assumption that an FDA drug prescribed by an MD comes with oversight. I’m sorry to say that has not been my experience.

    My 88 year old mother was ON prescription Xanax for 20 years-I only recently zeroed in on this evil drug as a contributing cause to a worsening, disatrous family situation. My mother was seen by multiple medical specialists and not one suggested that this drug could be a problem.

    I found the information to wean my mother off this drug on the internet. My mother did not receive one phone call to check on her progress by her doctors even though I informed them about our plans to get her off the drug. It is months later and they still haven’t called. I think they are more worried about a lawsuit than they are about my mother. And as an aside there was absolutely no monitoring while she was taking Xanax.

    Through the internet I learned about lithium orotate and my mother started taking a half dose daily about a month agowhich she says helps her sleep. I know that she is calmer and more pleasant than she ever was on Xanax. For the first time in years, some of her Parkinson’s symptoms have lessened and she can write legibly, allowing her to do crossword puzzles, which makes me wonder if she actually has Parkinson’s or was manifesting daily Xanax withdrawal symptoms that look like Parkinson’s. We were also able to reduce her Parkinson’s meds from 7 dosages to 1 without the aid or permission of her doctors.

    I have come to believe that we can not wholly place our health in the hands of doctors, who don’t know our bodies as well as we do and who test by the average, not an individual baseline.

    Mastershay-Vitamin Shoppe has discontinued the brand of lithium orotate containing 64mgs. that I purchased for my mother so I need to find another. I’m curious what brand/amount do you use?

  • 30. thordora  |  November 2, 2008 at 2:57 am

    Gabe sent me the link to this post when I stumbled on the topic on LJ-as I though, crock.

    Scary crock though.

  • [...] depression can be treated or even cured using natural methods, such as vitamins, amino acids or Lithium Orotate — which is not the Lithium commonly used to treat manic [...]

  • 32. Christie  |  December 7, 2008 at 1:40 am

    I have been suffering major depression and anxiety for almost 2 years. I tried Prozac and Lexapro along with Xanax. I stopped Lexapro after 2 weeks as I COULD NOT REMEMBER ANYTHING. I also began a high vitamin and healthy diet. NOTHING WORKED. On a good day I was able to get out of bed and brush my teeth and hair.

    I read Suzanne Somers book on anti-aging and began taking on Lithium Orotate tablet a day. It is now 3 weeks later and I AM A NEW WOMAN. All of my symptoms have vanished and I am full of energy and zest for LIFE.

    I HIGHLY recommend trying this mineral for anyone out there feeling so low…death looks like a relief.

  • 33. experimental chimp  |  December 7, 2008 at 9:39 am

    1. Prozac and Lexapro are a tiny sliver of the range of antidepressant medications available. If you were stuck for two years on anti-depressants that didn’t work, maybe it would have been a good idea to tell your doctor about this and get prescribed something else. Or, you know, try therapy.

    2. So how exactly did you manage to eat this healthy diet when you were unable to even get out of bed some days?

    3. As discussed above, “mineral” is meaningless. Don’t fool yourself – you’re self-medicating with a drug.

    4. Recommending that people take a powerful, untested and possibly dangerous drug without any medical supervision based on the fact that you think it makes you feel better is completely irresponsible.

    5. One person feeling better is no measure of effectiveness. That’s why they have clinical trials. Episodes of depression are often self-limiting or come in cycles, so people tend to feel better after a while anyway. You have no way of knowing if you’d have got better without the lithium,

  • 34. Gabriel...  |  December 7, 2008 at 10:08 pm

    I don’t know Chimp, Christie makes a lot of good points. And it seems like she’s totally qualified to be recommending drugs to complete strangers suffering from brain-numbing depressions based on her personal experiences in having read a book written by the person who played Chrissy on Three’s Company who used the drug as an anti-ageing supplement.

  • 35. Mr.Sane  |  December 9, 2008 at 10:52 pm

    You guys are setting up a “straw man” when you say that Lithium OROTATE is the same thing as Lithium CARBONATE. Either that or you honestly don’t know the difference, in which case you are too ignorant to have an intelligent informed discussion on the subject.

    A simple Google search would shine the light of truth in this room so bright all of your inane, prejudiced comments would disappear.

    So research for yourself before you talk out of your ass.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_pharmacology

  • 36. experimental chimp  |  December 10, 2008 at 7:37 am

    Mr. Sane: Did you even read the post? I quote: “The orotate form of lithium replaces the carbonic acid with orotic acid. Nieper believed that combining a mineral like lithium with orotic acid would mean that the drug would be released only inside cells. His own description of this process can be found here.”

    Yes, I know lithium orotate isn’t the same thing as lithium carbonate. Duh. They’re both lithium salts, the purpose of which is to deliver lithium to the body. There are probably differences as to bio-availability and pharmakokinetics, But nobody’s actually studied these things in any detail, so who knows? The effects and side effects, ignoring the junk science and crank medicine of Nieper et al., are extremely likely to be substantially similar.

    So maybe you should, y’know, read stuff before making accusations.

  • 37. john  |  February 26, 2009 at 4:04 am

    I have a10 year back round in nateral healing and I wish to add my opinion on this .
    1. I know 2 people that are taking some form of lithium orotate and say that it is improving their mental state ,and ability to funstion .
    2 so who is the supplier is would determine the Quality of the product.
    3. side effect would mean for you to stop taking it for a wile or permanitly , as some people seem to experience “side effects ” your claimed annoyance to this , I counter with the following .
    DON,T ALL DRUGS HAVE SIDE EFFECTS FOR SOME PEOPLE ?
    4. One side effect for my friend is a metal taste in his mouth ,so he wisely backed off his dosage.

    so get it from a place that others you know recommend , with a 30 day money back garrentee , if it helps great if not send it back.

  • 38. Beck  |  March 9, 2009 at 7:56 pm

    I myself was floored at first when I found out that Lithium can be sold OTC as a supplement, but then I did a little bit reading up on it. I would agree that lithium as used to treat cases of severe depression and bipolar disorders should be monitored but there is a difference between prescription grade lithium and lithium used as a supplement. Lithium asparatate and lithium orotate that you can purchase without a prescription is a very low dosage (typically 5mg up to 120 mg) compared to that used as an actual medication which is much higher (300 mg to 800 mg). You can go buy motrin over the counter in low doses for your basic headache, but it still needs to be prescribed by a doctor if you are taking an 800mg pill for pain due to an injury or surgery. This goes for pretty much any other drug that is OTC vs prescription. Yes, the supplemental form of lithium is not monitored by the FDA, but I suspect it has in part to do with the stigma of the drug as well as the disorders that it was originally intended to treat.
    Let’s also remember that lithium is actually a naturally occuring mineral and is actually found in food sources such as tomatoes, potatoes, and some hot peppers so small doses as a dietary supplement that may actually help stabalize mood among other ailments I don’t see as a bad thing.

  • 39. Beck  |  March 9, 2009 at 8:09 pm

    One other comment. A former posting downs the book written by Susanne Somers, but it is not like she is just coming up with these ideas out of the blue and without evidence. Her claims are actually backed by many very well respected people in the medical community. Here is one example of an article about the subject written by an actual doctor: http://www.tahoma-clinic.com/lithium1.shtml

  • 40. experimental chimp  |  March 9, 2009 at 8:42 pm

    It’s disingenuous to suggest that dietary lithium has much to do with lithium orotate supplements. Average daily consumption of lithium is maybe 1mg. Doses of lithium orotate are much higher than this. The comparison to motrin also seems pretty suspect to me. Ibuprofen is one of the most widely used drugs in the world. It’s side effects and safe dosages are well known. The sum total of lithium orotate research, on the other hand, is summarised in my blog post. And even that’s contradictory. Nobody’s decided that there’s a safe level of lithium orotate/aspartate that should be available over-the-counter. How could they? Nobody’s done the research. And, of course, unlike these lithium supplements, the manufacture and marketing of ibuprofen is tightly regulated.

    I would question whether there are, in fact, “many very well respected people in the medical community” who think that lithium supplements are at all a good idea. The doctor you link to, for example, has mostly published in alternative medicine and nutritionism journals, neither of which is very respectable in mainstream medicine.

  • 41. Gabriel...  |  March 10, 2009 at 6:30 am

    “…it is not like she is just coming up with these ideas out of the blue and without evidence.”

    I’m sure the crack research team at Suzanne Somers Inc. spent months pouring over the available research on the short, middle and long term effects of Lithium Orotate and then published only the most balanced reports in her lifestyle enhancement books… which claims Lithium Orotate counteracts the effects of ageing based entirely on anecdotal evidence.

  • [...] a “brisk exothermic reaction”. To put it another way, you’d end up with no tongue.” Lithium Orotate: Just a dietary supplement, not a drug at all, oh [...]

  • 43. bill cathcart  |  June 9, 2009 at 11:10 pm

    i’m always amased how we are manipulated to trust someone just because they are from the medical field. when the same people that wrote this article write about how many people have died from asperin and or vioxx so that we can get a comparitive view of how dangerous lithium really is in comparison, then i might believe that it is an unbiased opinion. ps i still have the freedom to buy cigarettes and alcohol but then the government makes good revenues from this. always ask this ?. who has the most to gain by me believing this, or should i say who has the most $ to lose.

  • 44. Gyula Lorincz  |  June 17, 2009 at 3:25 pm

    My mother took lithium in large doses for several years for major bipolar illness, but had to stop because of side effects. She also took valproic acid and the other mood stabilizers.

    I have taken another anticonvulsent, lamotrigine for bipolar illness.

    I can tell you from my personal experience that things are not black and white as James implies. Most people are prescribed drugs for mood disorders in very large doses when they have an acute episode, since doctors try to rapidly bring it under control. This is like hitting the person with a big hammer. Yes the acute problem may be reversed, but often the mood overshoots in the other direction. The point is that doctors are trained and encouraged to prescribe in “therapeutic” but high doses which cause many of the side effects. This is good for the drug companies but not for the patient.

    The situation with lithium is complicated since it is a mineral which we ingest in trace amounts depending on where we live and what we eat. There is some epidemiological evidence that amount of dietary lithium is correlated with mood disorders and crime. This type of study is very difficult in practice and almost impossible to fund. The point is that there is some reason to think that “small” amounts of lithium could help reduce bipolar illness. The fact that there is no scientific evidence is as much a symptom of the way the medical system is organized and funded, as anything else. It is also hard to find a doctor who is willing to prescribe such small dosages and monitor your progress. The claims of the companies selling these supplements are outrageous, but there is plenty of outrageous behavior on the part of the drug companies as well. This leaves the patient at the mercy of one or the other.

    My education is in Experimental Physics. I do understand how to judge experimental results even in other fields.

  • 45. Pamela  |  July 15, 2009 at 7:48 pm

    In all your research…I wonder if you ran across the info about lithium orotate being a natural occuring mineral in ground water?
    And the fact the lithium orote repairss & rebuilds in a person’t body, whereas pharmecuitical lithium only temporarily fixes… like 5HTP vs other chemically induced seratonin products….Neither Lithium Orotate or 5HTP or other holistics as such should be taken for long periods of time….since they rebuild & repair….any person taking them should have ‘signs’ of sstopping such as headaches…or other symptoms telling you to stop now….i’ve had enough! That’s why self medication isn’t really smart unless you know exactly what you’re doing.

    It’s common sense that any meds…..natural or otherwise can cause major trouble if mis-used…

  • 46. resco  |  July 18, 2009 at 2:39 am

    Great comments from all. I tend to agree that lithium oratate is the product I would use.

    resco

  • 47. researchindepth  |  August 20, 2009 at 12:23 pm

    This article is terrible. Talk about selective bias and demonisation. You went to find the worst products you could find and used that as a means for your diatribe.

    Lets correct a few things. People ARE NOT suggesting the use of lithium orotate, as you assert, to replace ‘regular lithium’.

    “Marketing lithium orotate as a dietary supplement is clearly nonsensical and mendacious, it’s the same drug in lithium orotate as in lithium carbonate, the only possible difference is in how the drug is metabolised in the body.”

    Its not mendacious or nonsensical. It is not the same drug as used in lithium carbonate mood stabilising therapy, which is orders of magnitude higher in dose. Just as with other minerals, very high dose radically alters the nature and function of the substance, allthough it may share some functions.

    “It would be unwise to take pure lithium as adding lithium to water results in what chemists like to call a “brisk exothermic reaction”. To put it another way, you’d end up with no tongue.”

    Nope, at a few miligrams the heat given off would be quite negligible, but in any case, the objective here is to replicate other sources of lithium in the diet. Concern over supposed toxicity is way overblown – since the epidemiology shows those in the higher percentile of intake have substantial benefits. These are NOT related to the normal very high use of lithium in mood stabilisation. The difference is that ‘therapeutic’ doses use by doctors is toxic and the levels associated with supplements or the upper natural intake are not known or suspected to be. The difference in intake is orders of magnitude, and the profile of action is distinct. What we can say for sure, is if the lithium containing molecule is broken down whilst delivering lithium in a relevant form, then it will be expected to have some influence. The difference of the effect with low dose and high dose is that high dose has unique effects and is excitotoxic, whilst ‘low dose’ lithium is already well assessed to be neuroprotective. Scientists fully acknowledge that ‘low dose lithium’ is distinct from normal uses of lithium and is a distinct concept used for different purposes, though it may, and is being tested for, the purposes of boosting the capacity to resist future psychotic episodes, when used as a lower dose preventative treatment (this is still relatively high dose). These dose ranges for the distinct ‘low dose lithium’ are considered as a tenth to a thirtieth the doses of lithium as a mood stabiliser, and it may, or may not, apply to lower dietary levels or those of this supplement. By comparisom, because the orotate molecule is large by comparisom to the lithium, dietary supplements (that are reputable) contain much lower levels again – nearly a tenth as low again as low doses that have been shown to have remarkable neuroprotective and regenerative effects (and others). This is not like homeopathic dosages, the level is still higher than the natural range in the populace, already quite strongly associated with health benefits in epidemiological studies, which are consistent with those effects found in low dose lithium studies. There us a possible concern that low dose lithium could interact in such a way as to accumulate when used with some other medications, this dose is still unlikely to be toxic, and a warning would surfice. Legitimate concerns relate to wether or not the lithium is delivered in an effective carrier, not that the dose is too high, but rather may be too low, making it at worst worthless, or that it functions like the higher intakes of lithium, thought to share an MOA with low dose lithium. At the low dose end (a lower effective dose not yet established), lithium is suggested by research to be a promising substance that at the lowest supplemental doses there is no reason to assume is ‘drug like’ rather than ‘nutrient like’, regardless of whether its effects are large (the effects of all vitamins are large, compared with deficiency states). For the ‘low dose’ effects, we cannot claim that this is a drug, and not a nutrient. The existing research is consistent with a nutrient status at low dose, and a drug status at high dose.

  • 48. researchindepth  |  August 20, 2009 at 1:04 pm

    I have to correct my self – a few vendors are suggesting, on review, that this supplement can be used as an alternative to high dose lithium therapy, which they should not be, due to lack of evidence. If we were to take lithium as a supplement, we would not want to do so for that purpose, but to provide low doses of lithium (a minimally effective dose to replicate the neuroprotective effects of LOW DOSE lithium) or to replicate, if distinct, the actions suggested by higher natural intakes, which we presume to be consistent with the low dose action.

    I also have to correct a statement on the relative dose of the supplemental form (orotate) – this is not wildly different to the doses provided in some of the low dose studies, but is hard to assess because of availability unknowns. Low dose lithium treatment is covered by articles in popular science magazines.

    The propper position is that there is no case against lithium for supplemental purposes, but there is a case against the claims made and purpose suggested by some vendors, of the ‘lithium orotate’ form, and the data on bioavailability is insufficient.

    The reason for the over-confidence on the part of vendors for this form, is that low dose lithium is promising, and alternative forms have not been available.

  • 49. researchindepth  |  August 20, 2009 at 7:17 pm

    Niacin is a chemical. When you eat some chicken soup, it’s one of the many nutrients present. When you extract it and take it in the form of a pill or an injection, it’s a drug.

    RUBBISH

    The key is dose, and the impact of dose may only be apparent at multiples of a typical intake, not withstanding variations in people.

    Obviously I am wrong, since prozac occurs naturally in chicken soup, and everyone acknowledges its not a drug then.

    Who is this experimental chimp?

  • 50. researchindepth  |  August 20, 2009 at 7:44 pm

    “Gabriel… | August 19, 2008 at 4:10 am
    Lithium is safe for them to adopt as a treatment because it has almost nothing to do with “Big Pharma”. This way they can still say “psychiatrists are evil” because with Lithium Orotate supplements people can self-medicate. It also makes it easier, further down the line, to convince people to take Vitamin B or whatever instead of Lithium Orotate because hey, they’re both supplements but Vitamin B6 is easier on the kidneys.

    It’s mostly a reaction to the studies coming out over the past few years into the benefits of Lithium as a tool against manic depression. So…

    Then:
    “Lithium will burn out your kidneys”

    Now:
    “Sure Lithium works, everybody knows that. But you don’t need a psychiatrist, they’re evil.”

    And keep in mind the anti-psychiatrists/medications people are only two tiers away from the actual Co$. It’s the branch organizations the Co$ set up years ago, like Mindfreedom, that release these crazed statements about the evils of psychiatry, which the anti-psych blogs pick up and report on as Absolute Truth.

    It’s a fantastic communications strategy. There are over a hundred different Co$ front groups that drop the press releases and gather the information the anti-shrink blogs then report on.

    It really is incredible how this thing works…”

    Your story of elaborate counter-cycnical cynism is incredible – go see a psychiatrist (by your logic, and take the prescription you’re given).

    For more reasonble people – remember, if you have brain power, you can isolate the difference between the view points of some people and others, and don’t need to go around generalising, demonising, and then constructing straw men to win silly little arguments. Ockham’s Razor best explains why the ‘nutrient balancing’ crowd seem to be ‘anti-psychiatry’ (its actually a misperception, but anyway, since they are trying to treat chronic physical and psychiatric conditions like depression and ADHD, that derive solidly from psychiatry), the fact that not being effectively made well by years approaching the problem conventionally, without success or unacceptible side effects probably has something to do with it (sarcasm, for the less smart). If you are loyal and improve with one treatment, and not the other (‘conventional’), what is that telling us about the problems with the psychiatric diagnosis? If there is no basis to the ‘alternative’ treatment (which there frequently is) then the benefit can only be imaginary and slight – which means there was no psychiatric condition in the first place, and no psychiatric drugs are needed, only placebos and some internet messages.

    According to conventional thinking. The micronutrient balance hypothesis is broadly valid for every organism – it is a central tenet that all organisms only evolve for their particular environment. The only reason why we need vitamin K, D and A is that these nutrients evolved far back in the marine food chain and remained important due to diet. If they had not been present at any point there is the evolution of other pathways. The only reason why there is tollerence for variations is because there is variations in the diet (ie resulting in other synthesis pathways and dynamic regulation over production and excretion, or storage depots, examples include the famous case of vitamin D. This is somewhat less true for other nutrients, particularly minerals like iodine and selenium and magnesium.)

    The reality is always confounded by factors such as the capacity for substances to be used interchangeably, and play roles in the natural signalling and responsiveness of the organism (ie in regulation of immune cells) making many substances ‘semi’ essential, in that they become increasingly so when there is less of other agents. Many nutrients have modest effects on certain parameters, but which can be substituted by increases of other nutrients. This is one problem with assessing the value of individual antioxidants, for example. It also impairs the results when control groups and treatment groups are not sufficiently different ie represent worse case population groups vs best case, since there are in reality very wide variations in health between lifestyles.

  • 51. Peter Nisbet  |  August 26, 2009 at 3:43 pm

    I have never read such an ill-informed thread for a long time. Some seem to get it, but others not. The active ingredient in any lithium salt is the Li+ ion. The rest of it – orotate, aspartate, sulfate, carbonate – makes very little difference as long as it is water soluble.

    The difference is, as stated by some, in the concentration of the dose. Otherwise they are basically the same other than some slight differences in solubility and hence achievable solution concentrations.

    Incidentally, for those that disagre or think it ‘silly’ to say so, the USA IS way behind most of the rest of the Western World (and Eastern) in pharmaceutical technology due to the influence of the big pharma corporations on both the legistlature and the FDA. There is no debating or disputing this to the shame of the USA.

    Drug research in the USA rarely gets beyond just that – research – while in Europe there is very little influence exerted on legislation by drugs companies: at least comparatively!

    I would prefer to be proved wrong due to the influence of North America, but have yet to receive a coherent argument based on fact rather than patriotism.

  • 52. Charly  |  September 8, 2009 at 4:19 am

    My experiance of lithum orotate is negative… It was suggested that I take it by a MD/ND – He said I should take 260 mg. daily. The week I took it my world completely slowed down. My speech slowed down, my thinking slowed down – I was completely laid back. liked it at first. When a week went by and the symptoms remained I decided to stop taking it. it is 2 1/2 years later and I never recovered. When I am stressed or tired my speech is slured, I even studder at times, my co-ordination is really bad, I walk like I’m drunk, and I have muscle weakness, double vision when tired and have trouble doing anything. It has progressively gotten worse.
    I have no pain or numbness. All this happened after I took the lithum orotate. The only thing I’m allergic to is asprin, there may be a connection – I have never found anyone else that has been permenantly affected. Other than this I am very healthy at 66 years old, and I am not on any prescription drugs. 6 years ago I stopped eating refined sugar, white flour, fried foods and really cleaned up my diet. I eat between 6-10 fruits and vegetables a day. I do a lot to be healthy.

  • 53. Experienced  |  November 11, 2009 at 3:47 am

    A few readers still don’t get the FDA “drug” thing. By defining a drug as something that cures an illness, the FDA completely controls all competition to pharmaceutical companies. If you market an alternative medicine as being able to “cure” anything, the FDA can prosecute you, unless you can claim to have spent millions running a “large scale, randomized, double blind, placebo controlled trial.” Only the largest companies can afford to do this.

    Also, the AMA plays right along by defining new diseases like reflux disease that used to be just “heartburn.” This means that the only cure to any given disease is what the AMA says it is, no other claims are allowed. And only big pharma can play in this league.

    Whether you believe in conspiracies or not, this is what the net result is, that the FDA supports big pharma, fights against alternative treatments and ignores the American people.

    So whether you

  • 54. Kelly  |  November 22, 2009 at 7:14 pm

    You must work for a pharmaceutical co. There will never be extensive research on the efficacy of lithium orotate because it can not be patented. Drug co. don’t want you to know it works. They are not going to spend the kind of money it takes to conduct this kind of research.

  • 55. naturelover2  |  December 27, 2009 at 5:20 am

    Experimental Chimp, on 7-22-08 you wrote you were “feeling really good on Lamictal and folic acid”.

    Now, almost a year and a half later, I am curious to know if you are still getting the same results? And what is Lamictal? I have heard of folic acid used for dep but have not heard of lamictal.

    And a question for everyone, what is the latest on Lithium Orotate? Has anyone else tried it for the longer term like for a year or longer? And if so what results are you getting or not getting? Any side effects? Would appreciate your feedback on this.

  • 56. laderooni  |  February 24, 2010 at 6:45 am

    Frankly, I rather have the freedom to chose what health protocols I want to try than have nanny-statist FDA and voracious Big Pharmas decide for me.

    Yes, supplements are not regulated enough and can make outrageous claims.

    But, just as affirmatively, a supplement that “has no proof” may still be safe and effective. There is absolutely NO impetus to spend millions to research un-patentable remedies in this country. The most you can hope for is that the NIH will eventually get around to evaluating more supplements (and doctors will still hear about their recommendation, even if they don’t include attractive sales girls, calendars or golf clubs).

    Europeans have herbal remedies standardized and prescribed like any other drug. They’re not so worried about shareholders over there as they are about safety and affordability.

  • 57. brain power supplements  |  March 20, 2010 at 9:15 am

    I have read some posts and i am going to add this blog to my RSS feed reader

  • 58. Colby Kaye  |  March 28, 2010 at 7:44 pm

    Bipolar disorder is a severe and complicated mental illness. Many doctors are unable or unwilling to diagnose bipolar disorder in children and young teens. It is important to get help and recognize the different treatment options available. Silver Hill Hospital, a substance abuse and psychiatric hospital, has some helpful information and resources.

  • 59. lake  |  April 6, 2010 at 7:28 pm

    I agree that medicines should be regulated. The only thing is that the FDA is a corrupt government corporation that is more a less an agent of big pharma. When the FDA declares war on something, we pretty much know there are natural cures out there for it that are being suppressed. And the only really good thing about Quack Watch is that it’s bias against alternative therapies is so blatant we can be certain that if a therapy is listed on that site, it’s actually worth investigating. Lithium is a pretty toxic drug in carbonate form. I think the oratate form is worth checking out if it allows less to be ingested fpr the same theraputic effect. It’s sad that the FDA is so far gone that it serves no useful purpose anymore. A regulatory agency under control of the general citizenry would be more appropriate. Peace.

  • [...] ‘Oratate v. Carbonate: Lithium Isn’t Created Equally’; May 16, 2008 “Many drugs need to be in the form of a salt to be stable. Lithium, the kind that actual doctors prescribe, is usually in the form of lithium carbonate. The lithium molecule is combined with a molecule of carbonic acid, to form lithium carbonate. It would be unwise to take pure lithium as adding lithium to water results in what chemists like to call a “brisk exothermic reaction”. To put it another way, you’d end up with no tongue.” [...]

  • 61. Elizabeth  |  April 10, 2010 at 1:09 pm

    I have been taking lithium orotate for nine months, and began taking it after three psychiatrists, over seven years, told me that there was nothing to be done about my manic depression, which is pretty severe on the depressive end and included a yearly manic in the winter. I researched the various Pharma drugs available for my condition and realized they were right: I’d taken all of them to no avail. Lithium carbonate worked well enough for a couple of months, but then suppressed my thyroid to the point that I couldn’t take it anymore. None of the other mood stabilizers did a thing for my extreme states on either end. The atypical antipsychotics the psychiatrists are now favoring were a disaster for me, and their potential side effects are rather terrifying.

    With lithium carbonate in combination with the OTC preparation Amoryn, my symptoms are finally under control. I did not have my annual manic and my depression is under control as well. Furthermore, I have suffered no side effects.

    Before changing to OTC meds, I researched them all and considered the risks and benefits, comparing them with the risks and benefits of Pharma drugs. My decision was based on the obvious fact that I got no benefits from the Pharma drugs, and was on the edge of suicide. I could find no serious incidents of side effects for lithium orotate other than the one girl who tried to overdose and only sufffered a mild, temporary leg tremor. Compare that to the side effects and dangers of Pharma meds, and maybe you will have a more balanced view.

    Manic depression is a life-threatening condition, and I have known several people who have committed suicide while under psychiatric care, and I know many who now take them and are not doing well: still going manic, still dealing with the depression, being switched from one med cocktail to another. Yet they are led to believe that the psychiatrists are doing their best.

    I can no longer believe that, given the fact that OTC meds, particularly lithium orotate, have offered me marked improvement. But my last psychiatrist had never heard of lithium orotate, and of all the psychiatrists I’ve goine to, none have bothered to consider alternatives to Pharma meds.

    So for me, Pharma meds are out. It was time to decide: stick with the psychiatrists and continue to get worse to the point of suicide, or try to save myself. I chose the latter, thank God.

  • 62. Roy Smith  |  May 4, 2010 at 10:01 pm

    Any Government Agency even the FDA has a political agenda. I am nobody other than a person who will think for themself and form my own opinion based on available information. In most cases all you have to do is follow the money. I have had Biology at the college level and agreed with a Prof. who realized twenty+years ago that Cancers were caused by viruses.
    We have had only two types of cancers that admittedly by the Medical Community were caused by viruses. I fortunately have been somewhat vindicated in my belief and don’t look so foolish anymore.
    All the Doctors I have personnally have known would not allow Aspartame to be consumed by “their children” for as long as it’s been “Aproved ” by the FDA. So I do not trust them whole heartedly with the statements made that it was amazing how fast Nutrasweet was pushed through.
    There are Billions pumped into Pharma. Co.’s by Gov. Grants which are part of our taxes, and being an overcharged American Moron.And because I’m an American everyone in the world is “ENTITLED” to overcharge me and we can manipulate you through guilt or making it a Law so we can.
    The laws and thoughts are controlled by big buisiness. The last thing I believe is somebody with a vested interest when they’re suppose to be telling the truth.
    By the way , what was quinine derived from and who discovered it’s use?

  • 63. Ronald  |  October 10, 2010 at 7:32 pm

    I would like to point out that, besides the question if lithium should be labeled a drug or a supplement, there will be next to no ‘medical’ research on it’s effectiveness simply because it is no longer patentable. If there are no exclusive rights for those who fund the research on a substance, that substance will NOT be researched.

    It’s no small matter, it is rule #1, 2 and 3 in modern pharmaceutical research. It totally dominates all forms of medical research into effective substances.

    This means basically, that if it’s off-patent, no dog will do research on it, unless you get an extremely altruistic researcher with a deep pocket full of money.

    Academic research centres have been forced by governments to co-opt with the industry to save on tax dollars. This has only allowed academic research to become corrupted by the huge inflow of industry money; it has not improved the quality of research but degraded it. True science is impartial; you will have no luck finding it in countries like the USA or the UK.

    In the case of lithium: it’s off-patent, so I can quite safely assure you that you will not see any huge breakthrough research on it in your entire lifetime.

    The only actual research interest I see in off-patent medicines is in fact in India, where new uses for generic medicines might promise low-cost healthcare to 1.1 billion people and where there appear some doctors actually interested in alternative viewpoints and not their own wealth.

    In the west, about 99% of all research is focused on high-cost (to the public and the taxpayer) substances. In fact, the pharmaceutical industry is actively turning one of the few remaining low-cost fields of medicine research, that of vaccination, into high-cost products, regardless of efficacy.
    This is because vaccines are garantueed cash-cows if you can persuade a shady government agency like the FDA that it works. You don’t actually need to prove that it is safe, or that it works to prevent an illness, you only need to prove that the body has an immune response to your vaccine. Once the shady government agency puts into a national vaccination scheme it will be a garantueed cash-cow, and no-long term follow-up research is even necessary. Vaccines are today a huge field of research only because it is almost garantueed to rake in billions and the quality standards for vaccines are far lower than those of ‘proper’ medicines. FAR lower.

    This obsession with patent drugs is also present in many so-called ‘altruistic’ efforts, like for example the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation, which makes a big fuzz about funding medicine research: when you look closely you will find that most of the money of that foundation goes into research that can be patented, as in: you can make money out of it.

    And please, let’s not talk about Quackwatch again; those loonies are at least as weird and crazy as all the nutters they’re trying to expose. I only go there if I’m interested in the debunkers POV, not sane reasoning.

    My point of view on supplements is simple: Unless found unsafe, allow them to be sold OTC. The vast majority of supplements are hundreds of times safer than even simple ‘real’ medication like aspirin. Prescription medicines themselves are one of the leading causes of death by substance use/abuse in the western world. NOT supplements.
    All the rest of the discussion is only Big Pharma trying to cut out cheap competition. Period.

  • 64. Ryan  |  November 12, 2010 at 3:54 pm

    I have bipolar disorder and have been taking lithium orotate for it for several months. The only side effect I have noticed is frequent urination. I backed off the amount I was taking and that went away. I have had severe reactions to many bipolar medications including severe mania, high blood pressure, resperatory problems, cognitive impairment… Lithium Orotate seems to fix the problem and come with no side effects at all -as long as you don’t take too much. If the author of this article had bipolar and went through the side effects of all the different medications for it, he would be singing the praises for lithium orotate instead of foolishly slamming something that he has no experience with.

  • 65. lithiumsupplementer  |  November 22, 2010 at 10:06 pm

    “Ten years of research by 27 counties in Texas disclosed that the incidence of homicide, rape, robbery, burglary, arrests for drug possession, and suicide[4] were higher in counties whose drinking water contained little or no lithium. Counties whose drinking water naturally contained higher amounts of lithium had significantly lower rates of all these crimes. These counties with higher levels of lithium in their tap water experienced fewer hospitalizations for homicides, mental illness[5], psychosis, neurosis, schizophrenia, and personality disorder.”

    http://long-healthy-life.com/supplements/lithium-research/

    I ‘ve been supplementing with lithium orotate or lithium aspartate for years. The dose is much lower than that of the prescription variety and I’ve never noticed any side effects. Was able to substitute for Stabilium, which costs more. Without the supplement, I have much more severe depression and inability to deal with stress. This is one of my favorite supplements- affordable and effective.

  • 66. Lorna  |  December 8, 2010 at 7:13 pm

    I took lithium orotate for about 2 years and it was the best supplement I have ever experienced for my anxiety/bipolar. Unfortunately I was unable to get it in Canada again. Decided to stop (i had never been on meds before this) and try medication that I could get for I am on diability. Every med. I have tried I cannot take, either it’s epival (caused high ammonia levels) Lithium carbonate made me stupid, seroquel has made me feel like I’m psychotic (hearing voices, talking to people when there is nobody there, gabapentin, diahrea. Need I say any more experiences, oh maybe one more SSRI good for a week or so than I can’t get out of bed. I am going to try my hardest however it may be to get lithium orotate again and quit pharma meds forever.

  • 67. Lorna  |  December 8, 2010 at 7:17 pm

    Anyone wanting to e-mail me i would be willing to comment. I have studied natural supplements for years. Decided to go the other route because of lack of funds. I also have worked as a pharmacy technician.

  • 68. lithiumsupplementer  |  December 9, 2010 at 3:37 pm

    Lots of good info on lithium orotate: http://mysite.verizon.net/res003jh/lithium-orotate/
    I’m using aspartate from Swanson vitamins now- very affordable.

  • 69. Niklas Fritzell  |  December 17, 2010 at 9:45 pm

    Yay! I have been taking low dose of lithium orotate for a week. Never been better actually. I finally feel free from all this.
    Better than any other medication I have been given. It´s been like getting my life back. content and not socially anxious. No sides either (except for some initial tiredness).

  • 70. Niklas Fritzell  |  December 17, 2010 at 9:47 pm

    Oh, and my social anxiety is 100 percent gone. I am not making this up =) I can see in the eyes of other people what mood state I am in, since this is how I have been “measuring things” over the years. I feel human :)

  • 71. Bill  |  January 20, 2011 at 6:40 am

    The low dose of lithium orotate and lithium aspartate that are sold as supplements (I found 2.5 and 5 mg on supplement websites) which is less than the dosage used for treatment of mania (bipolar disorder). There are studies that indicate lithium orotate might be usedprevent alzheimer’s disease, but studies have not been done to determine if it does. Many alternative health websites are encouraging people to use lithium orotate, in case it does work for alzheimer’s. Lithium orotate at the dosage in supplements is too low to damage the kidneys, unless you take more than is indicated on the label. The Wayne State University study shows how beneficial lithium is to brain cells (neuroprotective, etc).

  • 72. C  |  March 21, 2011 at 2:10 am

    That it is a “mineral” is not meaningless. Name another mineral that is scheduled as a medication.

    Salt is toxic to the kidneys as well.

    Your age, experience, and qualifications don’t support your rigid opinion.

  • 73. C  |  March 21, 2011 at 2:19 am

    Also, suggesting someone try other SSRI type medications, over Lithium which is already working, is completely irresponsible. SSRI’s create neurochemical situations which are proven to be long term toxic, carcinogenic (serotonin and estrogen increase) as well as detrimental to quality of life (reproductive function, increased risk of suicide, etc). Suggesting a depressive alter their status quo, which is working with a supplement that is mostly side effect free and doesn’t create such neurochemical imbalance in the recommended doses, is insane.

    If you are suggesting therapy to a person prone to suicidalal depression, over medication, then your writing and opinions are truly over the deep end. You should sit back, not write for a while, and pursue a medical degree. At least inform yourself as to the possible legal and personal (to the depressive) repercussions to your recommendations.

  • 74. LookingForAnswers  |  July 6, 2011 at 12:39 am

    Just wandering if any one reading this can tell me exactly how much lithium orotate they are taking? Have read that between 30-40 mgs is usual. My husaband was taking between 8-10 pills a day (5mg a piece) of the lithium aspartate and admitted that it was really helping him “level” off, but whenever he would be late in taking a dose you could definitely tell and seemed to still have a good deal of difficulty with anger. I just received some lithium orotate ordered over the internet and was wandering where to start as the bottle says it is 120 mgs.

  • 75. lithiumsupplementer  |  July 6, 2011 at 2:34 pm

    LookingForAnswers ,
    Lots of people find that just 5 or 10 mg of elemental lithium helps them. I think the orotate is about 10 mg of lithium per 120 mg pill. I would be more concerned about possible side-effects at doses exceeding 20 mg of pure lithium daily. Good luck!

  • 76. Gabriel...  |  July 7, 2011 at 8:02 pm

    Fucking parasites. Get your own blog and fuck off.

  • 77. Rachel  |  July 27, 2011 at 6:31 pm

    An interesting article. I have been on lithium orotate for three weeks now and I have to say it is really working. I will get my doctor to test for blood levels and monitor me for sure. After trying every ssri in the book, as well as tricyclics and maoi inhibitors and finding unpleasant side effects with all of these, I am very pleased to report no side effects so far. The only inconvenience is having to take a pill morning and night. I agree that it’s not a good idea to self prescribe, it is a drug. I hope my doctor is sympathetic and can keep an eye on how I am doing. Feel clear headed, relaxed, and capable of a full range of emotions. I am having slightly more vivid dreams, and no loss of libido. I hope this is helpful to someone. I am taking a low dose- 130mg which translates to – 4.8mg of elemental lithium. Twice a day. I hope that some studies are in the pipeline.

  • 78. abel  |  August 2, 2011 at 2:34 pm

    Wow, this article IS awful…and severely limited in basic research…sounds like a talking mouth part for our corrupted FDA (owned by big pharma, & agri-chem) Thank you Patrick McGean and all the others who contributed their common sense and actual education and experience on the matter.

    Note to the writer: I realize that our lack of ability to fully understand the endless amounts of piecemeal and constantly changing information in the world causes fear, and your sense of wanting to protect and warn everyone against something you don’t understand comes from a place of concern…

    Unfortunately, it takes some actual depth of effort, time and energy, to decipher truth from fiction in this world — rather should I say, “to decipher truth from greedy, profit & power-motivated DISinformation campaigns aimed at promoting fear and individual disempowerment”. Lithium supplements are fine.

  • 79. Gabriel...  |  August 3, 2011 at 1:26 am

    Hey, abel, you’re troll and you should go fuck yourself. If you’re so desperate to masturbate in front of a computer screen, go start your own blog and fill it with your Scientology / Suzanne Somers based bullshit.

    Just a note… telling someone their research is awful, then supplying none of your own, except more “big pharma wants our brains” paranoia, makes you a giant fucktard.

  • 80. Judy  |  October 25, 2011 at 6:16 am

    I was very happy to read that the people who really know about lithium took over this blog. My father was on lithium carbonate for 35 years and it helped his horrible bipolar disorder. However, it did not help his blood chemistry at the end. If a smaller dose works as well, I don’t need a doctor or a drug company to tell me about it. I know it works. It is a very inexpensive OTC drug so no company will want to research it.

    Whoever started this blog, please prove to me that lithium orotate in recommended doses is harmful. Where’s that proof?

  • 81. Judy  |  October 25, 2011 at 6:35 am

    Experimental chimp, (James) where are you? You have not posted anything for 2 years. I also have DSPS, (delayed sleep phase syndrome), Dad was bipolar and I drink a lot at a medicinal level. I found lithium orotate and think I will be saved from bipolar, from alcohol, but not delayed sleep?

    What happened? What meds are you taking for bipolar? Please let me know how the story ends. Bipolar disease and alcoholism have ravaged my family for generations, they are very closely related conditions which is why I am now taking lithium orotate.

    Tell me how you are doing.

  • 82. lithiumsupplementer  |  November 2, 2011 at 3:02 am

    There’s lots of good info here: http://www.smartbodyz.com/Lithium-Orotate-Alcoholism-Addictions-Herpes-Cold-Sores-Pg3.htm

  • 83. Details Of The Nutrient Carriers Lithium Orotate 200  |  November 29, 2011 at 11:20 am

    [...] Lithium Orotate: Just a dietary supplement, not a drug at all, oh no … The combination of the Orotate mineral carrier and our Micro Vortex Enteric Coating manufacturing process make Serenity™ a natural & effective product. This provides optimal . Essentially one would have to take between 100 and 200 mg of lithium aspartate to be equivlant with Lithium carbonate. Kidney . There are probably differences as to bio-availability and pharmakokinetics, But nobody's actually studied these things in any detail, so who knows? The effects . [...]

  • 84. indie69  |  December 12, 2011 at 1:11 am

    I tried to read through everything here, but I just wanted to politely point out that the dosages of the orotate and aspartate forms of lithium people are taking are so significantly lower than the rightly monitored, much higher doses (400-900mg daily, or higher) of lithium carbonate and citrate, most of the worry here is unfounded and an over-reaction. 5 to 10mg a day isn’t going to do a damned thing, to anyone. Period. Except possibly work for some people. Which it has, for me. At 5mg daily.

    I don’t assume you need to read it again, but just in case…

    Lithium Carbonate: 400-900mg daily.

    Lithium Orotate/Aspartate: 5 to 10 mg daily.

    That’s a significant difference. You’d have to take nearly the entire bottle in a couple of days to reach levels which would require monitoring.

    Everyone could argue day and night for all I care, about whether or not it works. But the dosages are so vastly different, to ignore or gloss over that fact is just beyond silly and paranoid.

    In any case, thanks for all the info, everyone. And best of luck.

  • 85. Jane Buck  |  December 19, 2011 at 9:45 pm

    When I see something on Quackwatch, I assume you are the quacks! I have had 1000′s more bad reactions from pharmaceuticals, over naturals. Who cares if the FDA approves it. Tabacco isn’t banned and is proves to reduce lifestyle and absolutely is cause of death in one form or another. SHEEEEEEEEEEEESH!!!!!!!!

  • 86. lithiumsupplementer  |  December 20, 2011 at 12:00 am

    Adverse event reports (AERs) to the FDA for 2008:
    • Supplements: 1,080 adverse events, of which 672 were considered serious;
    • Vaccines: 26,517 adverse events, of which 3,923 were considered serious; and
    • Prescription drugs and “therapeutic biologics”: 526,527 adverse events, of which 275,421 “had serious outcomes.”
    “Not all of the reports that FDA receives for drug and therapeutic biologic products are entered into the AERS database.”

    http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/GuidanceComplianceRegulatoryInformation/Surveillance/AdverseDrugEffects/ucm070434.htm

    For every serious adverse event caused by supplements, there were 409 such events caused by prescription drugs.
    By way of comparison, car crashes kill more than 40,000 Americans every year, while over 14,000 die due to accidental falls.
    Tobacco kills about 400,000 Americans yearly. Half a million die from heart attack.

  • 87. Judy  |  December 20, 2011 at 4:54 am

    I tried lithium orotate for several weeks, the worst side effect is it screws with your libido. I didn’t like it. It did not help my insomnia or my anxiety. I never get depressed so I think I just have GAD, (not bipolar). I am now trying passion flower. So far so good, very relaxed and sleepy.

    Lithium Orotate in this dosage had no other side effects except low libido. If you are bipolar, I think it should work well. I could definitely feel it working in this low dose, makes you feel very “level”.

  • 88. propecia reviews  |  January 5, 2012 at 6:46 pm

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  • 89. Rory  |  January 9, 2012 at 11:06 pm

    Can anyone who has been using Orotate for a while give us their liver and kidney test results?

    Many posters have said they will be monitoring these tests but no one has come up with their results!!

  • 90. Gabriel...  |  January 21, 2012 at 12:38 am

    Judy + Jane Buck + lithiumsupplementer + indie69 = didn’t read the post, or were too fucking stoned on their own ego to understand it.

  • 91. lithiumsupplementer  |  January 21, 2012 at 3:38 am

    You’ve got issues, Gabriel. Maybe lithium supplementation would help…

  • 92. Gabriel...  |  January 21, 2012 at 7:40 pm

    The post, you ass, was about how little to no proper studies have been done into the effects of lithium oratate at any dose. Until there are, it’s all guess work and pulling numbers out of thin air. Every time you people post here without documentation you prove ExChimp’s point. So unless any of you can offer up some proper references you’re all just another pack of fuck up trolls.

  • 93. lithiumsupplementer  |  January 21, 2012 at 8:05 pm

    Neither have any proper studies been done on many pharmaceuticals being sold in the U.S., including many available other-the-counter. And the “proper studies” performed on some “approved pharmaceuticals” are falsified. For example, they do several studies and then only mention the ones which had results they liked. Not to mention the conflict of interest issues. There’s no need to use bad language, Gabriel. Have a great day!

  • 94. Gabriel...  |  January 21, 2012 at 8:45 pm

    I think I’ll name you Kenny The Troll. Kenny, what you’re offering is called a “strawman argument”, it’s where you have so little evidence, or know so little regarding your side of an argument, that you try to cover up your ignorance by attempting to change the subject. It’s the most common tool of a troll.

    For example, ExChimp writes ‘there’s as much proof lithium oratate has any benefit for someones health as there is if they were to ingest a comparable amount of rock salt or common dirt’ and you say ‘big pharma is evil, bad language is bad’.

    So unless you’ve got some peer-reviewed evidence proving your point, which ExChimp actually provides in his post you dumbass, you’re just a common fucking troll.

  • 95. lithiumsupplementer  |  January 21, 2012 at 10:02 pm

    Gabriel, my suggestion is to present your point without attacking those who see things differently. Try it sometime. The “proof” of efficacy and safety of many supplements AND quite a few pharmaceuticals as well is limited to “anecdotal evidence”. There’s much more evidence than that of the harmfulness of alcohol and tobacco, yet any adult can buy them. My opinion is that any supplement not shown to present a public health hazard should be allowed to be sold. I don’t need “Big Brother” telling me what I am allowed to consume. Anything FDA approved should be clearly labeled as such, and anyone who wants to consume only such products is free to do so. (And the FDA has had to pull several approved products after it became apparent they were major public health hazards.)

    “72. C | March 21, 2011 at 2:10 am

    That it is a “mineral” is not meaningless. Name another mineral that is scheduled as a medication.”
    -Strontium, potassium, calcium, lithium, and iron are available as “pharmaceuticals”. There may be others.

  • 96. Gabriel...  |  January 22, 2012 at 3:40 am

    I love it. You find a well researched post written by a respected researcher, then crap on it with your drooling anti-pharma paranoia and Suzanne Somers infomercial education, create strawman arguments because you have nothing else to offer, then demand respect. You don’t see things “differently”, you see things stupidly.

    You’ve decided ExChimp is somehow wrong in what he has written, yet you offer a stream of nonsense as proof of… something… uhm… that “any supplement not shown to present a public health hazard should be allowed to be sold”.

    That is the dumbest piece of troll shit I’ve read in a long time. I’m now doubting you’re a troll at all, and just an idiot.

    Who’s doing the testing in your bizarre world to decide whether something is “presenting a health hazard”? It couldn’t be the people you claim are blocked by big-pharma to test whether it has a public health benefit… so… Suzanne Somers?

    Read the post again Kenny, you’re in over your head.

  • 97. RadRevD  |  February 22, 2012 at 7:43 am

    I have dreamed a couple times since starting Lithium orotate, 5HTP, and Tyrosine. I continue to take St. Johns Wort. I also added NAC and several herbals to support my liver.

    If I am to be a lab rat, it will be me doing the experimenting. I also am hypothyroid, still waiting Rx. Amazing the havoc one dysfunctional organ wreak. Add to that mix chronic back pain resulting from an injury incurred at an Assisted Living Facility. I can assure you my final days will not be spent institutionalized.

    As for Big Pharma…they can take their pills and shove them!

  • 98. RadRevD  |  February 22, 2012 at 7:54 am

    btw…

    POLITiCS = strategy of rule!

    How does that make royal chumps feel?

  • 99. helga trollska  |  March 5, 2012 at 11:11 pm

    Very informative blog. However, don’t you think the troll-bashing goes a bit far?

  • 100. jo  |  March 15, 2012 at 7:29 am

    i would like to say that i find there are many naive people in regards to natural therapies and drugs passed by the fda.case and point valproic acid used as an anti seziure medication in clinical trials increased the risk of suicidal thinkink,thoughts and ideation.why do you think this drug which also causes liver damage was passed.there are many drugs passed with limited efficacy because the pharmaceutical companies are constantly in need of showing profits to there shareholders.Powerful companies wiyh a huge influence with the government.the above drug mentioned is one of thousands.the power of the government in bed with these pharma companies is rediculous and peoples individual rights are being tarnished.Another example is the supplement NADH,well pharma companies are looking to isolate some of the ingredients in this natural product to come up with an anti alzheimers anti parkinsons drug.The push to faid out natural products is the wet dream of pharma companies to increase profits.Other examples are making so called new antidepressants by taking for example effexor and turning it into pristiq an isomer of effexor with no difference in efficacy,but yet still passed by manipulated trials.Citalopram into lexapro with no difference in efficacy all because the patants have ran out.There are many others i could go on and on but breaking through ignorance and rigid thinking is an impossible task.Low dose lithium orotate could really help someone as many other vitamins and minerals.In places where there is more lithium in the water there is less crime less mental illness,less mental illness related hospital visits,less rapes and overall lower crime rates.Peoples individual rights to take supplements are eroding along with the growing poverty and the rich getting richer.Alittle of topic but 20 percent of ameicans have 80 percent of the money and the remaing 80 percent of americans have 20 percent.Programmed hopellessness the government is in bed with all the big companies and that is real simple to ascertain.So my opinion is take whatever damn supplement you want just know what it is your taking because i persnally know many people who have increased there health tenfold by natural supplementation.So take a stand and realize that just because a drug is passed by the fda definatly does not make it safe.WAKE UP AMERICA.The side effects of many drugs passed by the fda have killed peoeple.Some are good some are not.BE dilligent in your quest for heath mentally or physically or both.YOU ARE FREE TO CHOOSE.I will post again with more information aas i have said enough for now.Bless al of you

  • 101. Nicholas Hoover  |  June 21, 2012 at 4:00 pm

    But this type of lithium naturally occurs in water, and levels sold in supplements are not at a therepeutic(sp) level but rather at a the microgram level. your complaint of including it in supplements seems rather spurious, no offense. Although I agree that if marketing for the supplements is claiming it is therepeutic then that is kind of lame, but marketing is marketing, however as a naturally occuring mineral at levels no where near the danger of therepeutic use I don’t really see it as an issue.

  • 102. Nicholas Hoover  |  June 21, 2012 at 4:02 pm

    Also flame away! lol

  • 103. Nicholas Hoover  |  June 21, 2012 at 4:05 pm

    Sorry about the flame comment. I see many commentors are trying to use it thereupeutically. I agree that seems dangerous.

  • [...] ‘Oratate v. Carbonate: Lithium Isn’t Created Equally’; May 16, 2008 “Many drugs need to be in the form of a salt to be stable. Lithium, the kind that actual doctors prescribe, is usually in the form of lithium carbonate. The lithium molecule is combined with a molecule of carbonic acid, to form lithium carbonate. It would be unwise to take pure lithium as adding lithium to water results in what chemists like to call a “brisk exothermic reaction”. To put it another way, you’d end up with no tongue.” [...]

  • 105. Ann  |  August 17, 2012 at 11:23 pm

    I prefer to listen to Dr. Jonathon Wright than the person quoting data from 1973 and not the recent studies done on this substance and its benefits.

  • 106. Gabriel...  |  August 21, 2012 at 12:44 am

    Sure, I totally agree. Anyone should be able to put anything into pill form and sell it off the back of a truck… and, if I can find four people in a shopping mall who say it works for them, well it must work for all of humanity. No one needs tests, no one likes tests, tests take too much time and money, and who has any of that?

    Of course we should listen to Dr. Wright, he’s a visionary, he has never once published anything anywhere that proves anything he has ever said. Perfect. Truly he is a man of this age. He even led “a group whose primary goal is to abolish government regulation of health-care activities.” (Wiki).

    Awesome.

  • 107. RadRevD  |  August 21, 2012 at 3:55 am

    oh so much better to comply with Big PHARMA and my VA physician. The latter and his supervisor failed to recognize that I was A-Fib and let me walk out of their exalted hospital. He recognized a sinus infection but failed to Rx. He refused to explain which of the NIH recognized herbals, some going through double-blind studies, that were supposedly killing me.

    Former PCP refused to test my thyroid levels, assumably because she didn’t Rx. She attributed my A Fib on April 23 due to my taking iodine and seaweed. She missed that I was taking Mexican CynoPlus. She likely never met a Vet she liked!

    The consequence of compliance with unlawful orders:
    Proof that Drs are clueless and want to do harm.
    Uric acid level now at 12, yet was at 8 on herbals.
    Gained 27 pounds in 12 weeks.
    Very agitated upon stopping Lithium & St. Johns-were they working?

    A Fib runs in my family and continues with vitals all over the map.
    Trying unsuccessfully to reign in symptoms.
    Blacked out at my computer looking for used text books.
    Nothing quite as sobering as driving a mile with your eyes closed!!!
    Do they have an antidote for Agent Orange or Roundup?

    Most Drs can take a flippin leap off the nearest bridge.
    They are complicit and should be the first to expire!

  • 108. Gabriel...  |  August 21, 2012 at 5:56 am

    Of course, like I said, there should be no testing. Of anything. We should take the opinions of people like Suzanne Somers and Dr. Wright, and yourself, at face value. There has been no clinical testing of Lithium Orotate proving its value, only anecdotal hearsay testimonials repeated on late night TV, therefore it must be safe. I agree completely. You had experiences with doctors that didn’t go well, therefore the entire system must be corrupt. I totally agree. Why, I saw a car accident just the other day, and now I totally distrust the government regulated licensing systems. I will never travel on a government built highway again. No sir.

  • 109. Sean  |  September 14, 2012 at 11:29 pm

    The medical establishment is also still in denial about the issue of SSRI withdrawal, too. They don’t want to believe it, even in the face of staggering evidence.

    Sometimes, when there’s a very large amount of anecdotal information available, it’s not imprudent to give it some consideration.

  • 110. lithiumsupplementer  |  September 17, 2012 at 5:05 pm

    There’s some interesting reading here on the FDA: http://www.lef.org/lefcms/aspx/Zmags.aspx?pid=43eaab68&source=CVJ200E

  • 111. Vankasolari  |  September 27, 2012 at 6:11 pm

    Wow.. where to start. I’m afraid that you’re way off. To maintain a therapeutic blood level of lithium you need doses that are just under toxic, 6000-9000mg, of lithium carbonate or lithium citrate and are required to undergo blood testing every 6 months or so. However, Lithium orotate is very different. This compound is not as quickly excreted from the body by the kidneys so you are able to maintain a therapeutic blood concentration at a fraction of the dosage and with fewer side effects. Most people start with 5mg bioavailable lithium 5 times a week.

    Lithium is a naturally occurring mineral found in almost all of the foods that we consume, dairy, eggs and nuts are some of the best sources. Natural spring water can be very high is lithium as well and some communities add lithium to their water supply because it has been shown to reduce the rate of crime and suicides.

    Put lithium on your tongue and it will explode? Please… that is just as stupid as saying the sodium in salt would do the same thing.

  • 112. Negar Riahi  |  October 10, 2012 at 10:26 am

    Please give this medicine to Sweden. We are in need of Lithium Orotate replacing all other medicines containting salts, harmful for the kidney and lever and thyroid gland etc….I wonder if you can use this instead of the Litarex?

  • 113. KRFaus  |  October 10, 2012 at 10:33 pm

    Interesting to hear this side. Some good points, but, other than anecdotes of overdose and vague references to some alleged studies, there is really no mentioned concrete support of WHY lithium supplements are just as potentially harmful as their prescription counterparts. You have just as little evidence against supplemental lithium as anyone does for it!

  • 114. Michelangelo  |  November 8, 2012 at 10:49 am

    Gabriel (aka ExChimp) … time for your flu shot. Afterwards, clean up your room.

  • 115. Weheartthis.Com  |  December 8, 2012 at 11:40 pm

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  • 116. Dr. Mark Millar  |  December 16, 2012 at 11:26 pm

    Hey Guys and Gals! I would love to send each and everyone of you a free copy of my E-book regarding Lithium Orotate. Just drop me an email to lithiumdoctor@live.com and I will send it to you no questions asked.

    I think you will find it to be an excellent resource that helps you understand this complicated topic.

    I hope it helps you!

    Mark Millar D.C.

  • 117. Dr. Mark Millar  |  December 16, 2012 at 11:27 pm

    PS my website http://www.opsetthemfree.com

  • 118. Dr. Mark Millar  |  December 16, 2012 at 11:56 pm

    Hey Gabriel regarding your comment “There has been no clinical testing of Lithium Orotate proving its value…”

    It is true that there is almost no published data on the use of Lithium Orotate (LO). However, in my direct communication with Dr. Jonathan Wright I learned that he did years of laboratory testing on his patients while he administered LO to them. He indicated that even at dosages of 40 mg per day of pure elemental lithium (EL) he rarely if ever found any disturbances of function within the kidneys or thyroid. He indicated to me that essentially LO is completely safe up to 40 mg EL. Since most patients utilizing LO are taking between 5-40 mg EL I believe that they are completely safe unless they are lithium sensitive and experience bothersome side effects. When these patients reduce their dosage they find their unusual symptoms resolve. Hope that helps. Dr. M

  • 119. RadRevD  |  December 18, 2012 at 9:12 am

    I have an appointment with a VA psychologist on Jan 11th. News of Sandy Hook certainly is sobering. Without Jesus and LO, I am not certain what state I would be in if cornered or attacked. The LO helps considerably.

    I have concern over my ‘emotional numbness’. Much has occurred in the past 14 months. My wife remains supportive, but the rest of my immediate family has dissed me. Not a bit of recognition of my back pain focusing to my foot with every step which increased significantly after lifting my mother off the floor of her bathroom.

    Yeah, I’m whining as I fall apart. At 59, I struggle in classes at a community college trying to learn new concepts like Adobe Illustrator while going further into debt. I will receive my first ‘F’ ever in that class. As BP, probably due to low thyroid much of my life, I have no desire for anyone to judge me. I need affirmation. Like Rodney, I get no respect!

    I am considered useful to a few who are willing to draw near for the services and wisdom I extend. I can still shovel snow for a brief time, but I find it unconscionable to charge an 87 year old woman to clear her driveway of snow. It’s bad enough that I charge her for mowing her lawn and other maintenance tasks.. I would be happiest if I could serve others without worrying about finances. As an unemployed American bone fide worker of over 40 years, I am sweating the loss of my home of 14 years.

    As for LO and double-blind studies…YOU GOT TO BE FREAKIN’ KIDDING!!! There is no money to be made by Fat Ass Pharma! They will not fund such research. The VA wants to put me on Lithium Carbonate but is very reluctant to test thyroid function beyond TSH. My time on earth draws near to a close. As a pastor called to equip the Saints and former AoG ordained minister of 18 years, it is either time for revolution or for me to go home.

  • 120. RadRevD  |  December 18, 2012 at 9:25 am

    who the H3LL is this Gabriel impostor and why does the moderator permit his continued deriding of other posters? It is only in desperation that I or anyone else would resort to supplementation beyond a multivitamin for preservation of health. If a few patients would go ‘postal’, maybe physicians would wake up, die right in Christ, do no harm, and ultimately do their job for which they are highly compensated.

  • 121. Patrick Sand  |  January 2, 2013 at 8:28 am

    Wow, this was a terrible article. The author takes a stance with no evidence to back his position and then demands people that disagree based on personal experience to provide proof of what they claim. I’ve taken LO and noticed a difference in my anxiety/mood at only 10mg/day.

    BTW, this Gabriel guy is a very low intellect, asshat. Not sure why he feels the need to defend this crappy article. Also notice the author didnt have the guts to stick around and defend this article when people who disagreed with him started posting. Unless of course he’s now another brain dead zombie, stoned out on pharmas drugs.

  • 122. Mark Millar  |  January 2, 2013 at 8:44 pm

    check out http://www.opsetthefree.com for great info on lithium orotate

  • 123. Mark Millar  |  January 2, 2013 at 8:47 pm

    Correction: check out http://www.opsetthemfree.com

  • 124. RadRevD  |  January 3, 2013 at 5:53 am

    Author perhaps more kindly referred to as a provoking troll in need.
    I do not like being dulled all the time, but it beats being angry.
    I am much more isolated this New Year, failed critical subjects for inability to understand new concepts in vector graphics, beating myself up more than usual, and facing an uncertain future.

    I am certain about this; Lithium Orotate is a beneficial mood stabilizer. LO does not impair the cytochrome P450 pathways like Monsanto’s crap does. Many fellow Vets suffer from mental maladies that likely will be attributed to inhabitation of these pathways resulting in depression and low metabolism.

    I don’t have all the answers nor the equipment to monitor my experiment. Spokane VAMC does have the equipment, but the results would prove that the US military is complicit in the subjugation of the citizens they have taken oaths to protect.

    Where can we go from here? Revolution or petition Obama to indict Monsanto? Would anyone outside the USA give a damn?

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  • 128. Mark Millar  |  April 30, 2013 at 2:36 am

    Lithium Orotate Rocks!! You have to give it a try! Terrific for Anxiety, ADHD, Autism, Alzheimer’s, Bipolar, Bruxism, Depression
    Sent from my iPhone

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  • 130. lithiumsupplementer  |  May 3, 2013 at 1:35 pm

    “Lithium is NOT technically a drug, but a mineral, similar to salt.” VA Research Currents, February, 2008

    “Could You Have a Lithium Deficiency? Shocking but true Lithium is an essential trace element.” -Emily Deans, M.D., Harvard trained psychiatrist

    “Lithium is an essential micronutrient…” -Mark Hyman, M.D., best-selling author

    “Lithium is a trace element which has important functions in the brain, including protecting brain cells from various toxins…” -Alice R. Laule, M.D.

    “Lithium is an essential micronutrient with some chemical properties similar to calcium and magnesium.” -Kerry D. Friesen, M.D.

    “Lithium is one of the most important elements in the human body.” -Lawrence Wilson, M.D.

    “Lithium appears to play an especially important role during the early fetal development as evidenced by the high lithium contents of the embryo during the early gestational period.”
    “In Li deficient rats, behavioral abnormalities and a significant negative effect on litter size and litter weight at birth were observed. In Li deficient goats the conception rate was reduced, gravid lithium deficient goats experienced a higher incidence of spontaneous abortions.”
    “The available experimental evidence now appears to be sufficient to accept lithium as essential…”

    http://www.jacn.org/content/21/1/14.long

  • 131. Ed Martinez  |  June 17, 2013 at 3:35 pm

    There are approx. 6 micrograms of lithium in every 150 micrograms of lithium orotate (162.03 m.w. of li orotate vs 156.1l of li alone). If 6 mcg of Li in 150 mcg of the li orotate, how many mcg (“X”) of Li in the one 12000 mcg tablet (see label on bottle)? About 480 mcg of Li per 12 mg tablet. Daily recommended nutritional dose has been estimated at around one mg (1000mcg) per day. I don’t see that 2 tabs a day, for a total of 960 micrograms, should be of concern, particularly in treatment of ADHD as an alternative to potentially noxious psychotropic drugs.

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  • 133. Gary DeBacher  |  July 10, 2013 at 8:02 pm

    I’m a bipolar type 2, and have been on lithium carbonate for 27 years with clear, good clinical results and no identifiable stability. I’m a clinical psychologist, ran free bipolar support groups for many years, and worked 18 years in the Atlanta Airport of state psychiatric hospitals.

    I was having an enjoyable day of retirement reviewing the growing number of well-done scientific studies on how lithium increases grey matter, spares the hypothalamus from some degree of shrinkage, protects against some kinds of brain damage.

    I thought I would see what research there was on lithium orotate. There wasn’t.

    There were repeated claims about how the orotate molecule could deliver little lithium atoms selectively to brain targets, rather than leaving them all around the body. This struck me as odd. Could we hope that an orotate or similar molecule could deliver lithium’s heavier and less mobile brothers, sodium and potassium, exactly where needed, rather than running around loose to give us side effects? I see *absolutely no possibility whatsoever* that a controlled delivery molecule could take tiny, feisty alkaline lithium molecules from one’s intestines to one’s brain cells. And you don’t see any way, either.

    This reminds me of when I challenged a pharmacist on the then-new, made up, largely useless medication expiration dates. I showed her my lithium bottle. How, I asked, does lithium expire? I had to ask her three times, because she wasn’t thinking at first. But she’d had to have real (not imaginary) biochemistry, so she knew lithium is small, but a very independent, uncontrollable element. You can chelate a lot of metals, by you can’t chelate alkaloids.

    On the other hand, though I see a lot of placebo effect and Dumbo’s Magic Feather flying around in this circus forum, I think it possible that while lithium has to be at relatively high doses to control bipolar mood swings, it might work at lower doses for at least *some* of the proven therapeutic and protective effects on the brain.

    We all had better hope so. Take your bit of oronate if you must, but give up on the woo-woo chemistry, and go read some REAL research on lithium and brain damage, Alzheimers, grey matter increases, etc. etc. It googles very easily, and it is REAL research.

    Oh, and I think the reason there is virtually no published research on oronate selective control of lithium, is that every time someone with real chemistry credentials thought about it, s/he said, “Naww, there’s no way the lithium ion can be packaged and delivered in the human body. It’s just that kind of atom.” Funny how centuries of chemistry research on the periodic table put an end to discussion.

  • 134. Melodee  |  August 2, 2013 at 9:43 am

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  • 135. Gabriel...  |  August 5, 2013 at 4:51 am

    “BTW, this Gabriel guy is a very low intellect, asshat. Not sure why he feels the need to defend this crappy article. Also notice the author didnt have the guts to stick around and defend this article when people who disagreed with him started posting.”

    The author, who is a friend of mine, was kind enough to leave his blog open to the public because it acts as a… lets say ‘pathway’ through his recovery from mental illness, and it might be a path for others to follow.

    Having reached a point in his recovery where this blog is no longer needed, he has moved on to host other blogs on other topics.

    He left this particular post available to everyone — including trolls — because it has value. Again, if anyone can find one peer reviewed study — university, community college, whatever — that shows Lithium Oratate has any value, please leave your source below (if some people actually read his piece — I’m looking at you Patrick and RadRev, he actually does supply a few, but I guess reading might take too much work).

    Otherwise, by posting comments like “hey, it worked for me because I took it and I’m better, and that’s all the proof I have”, you’re just proving his point over and over and over and over and aver again…

    Also… I have a blog. The URL is attached to every post I’ve made here. If you want to attack me, Patty, come get some.

  • 136. RadRevD  |  August 6, 2013 at 8:36 pm

    How many disgruntled Gabriels are there – at least a legion!

    There’s probably no double-blind study regarding sodium (an element) and I won’t waste the time searching. I’ve known one too many patients on Lithium carbonate that were not being monitored for toxicity. Swallow what you will. Big Pharma haas a list of seven must take meds for the deluded.

  • 137. Gabriel...  |  August 7, 2013 at 5:24 am

    So, again, your proof Lithium Oratate works is there’s no proof Lithium Oratate works, and people who take Lithium Carbonate without proper medical supervision are proof Lithium Carbonate is… bad?

    Awesome.

  • 138. lithiumsupplementer  |  September 11, 2013 at 7:38 pm

    FDA Protects Big Pharma Products by Declaring that Silver Has No Therapeutic Value

    http://www.anh-usa.org/fda-declares-silver-has-no-therapeutic-value/

    Here’s a trailer for a video I caught most of on TV recently- very sad how the FDA really works.

  • 139. Gabriel...  |  September 15, 2013 at 7:01 am

    Cool. Really. Hey, here’s a video I caught that eviscerates your anti-pharma / fear mongering anti-FDA / anti-science bullshit: Plus, it’s funny, animated, brilliant and it’s not full of shit. So, you know… you might not ‘get it’. But try.

  • […] with a serious look on your face, while they go on about “mercury in this” and “lithium orotate that”. And it gets boring. Because those conversations are painful, so you stop engaging […]

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  • 143. greg  |  April 12, 2014 at 1:39 am

    I recently did a hair analysis. The results showed low lithium. I guess i am pretty moody to say the least sometimes. 15 years ago had bi-polar symptoms. I went to get some Lithium orotate from the herb store, and it turns out canada has banned it for some reason. Pretty disappointing. How the hell am i supposed to get my lithium levels up, without taking toxic pharmaceuticals?!. I just was some lithium suppplements! Not a proud moment to be canadian. The goverment need to keep their damn hands off our herbal products etc! Its just a goddam salt!! Ya, take too much table salt and your kidneys are damaged too! We are all adults here, lets us decide for ourselves what we want to take!! Its a damn shame people have to suffer because of some idiot politicians, bending over for the big pharm.

  • 144. Dr Mark Millar  |  April 12, 2014 at 6:25 am

    I ship Lithium Orotate to Canada Greg!
    Dr Mark Millar
    480-282-1545

  • 145. RadRevD  |  April 12, 2014 at 4:29 pm

    The only drawback I can see with Lithium Orotate is the repression of thyroid function. My T4 and conversion to Free T3 was already impaired by Hashimoto’s likely caused by iron overload damage via Hereditary Hemochromatosis.

    I am washing out of LO and herbs in anticipation of a pacemaker. My Ferritin is under control through phlebotomies, but my plasma iron and FE saturation are clinically elevated. I limit meat and avoid processed food, sugar, and wheat/gluten, What’s so wrong with slices of zucchini dredged through greek cucumber salad?

  • 146. Gabriel...  |  June 10, 2014 at 12:07 am

    “…bending over for the big pharm.”

    Yes, we all know how lucrative Lithium sales are in Canada. Fucking mansions built in Montreal on the backs of Lithium miners in some third-world country. Yes. Please, Greg, tell me more about the salt mines that fill the coffers of Big Nasty Old Pharma.

    Whether it works or not, RadRev and Dr. Mark*, is not the point of this article. Well, not really. The point of this piece is: products that have not been tested, or researched, should not be available over the freaking counter, marketed as a ‘dietary supplement’.

    The fact you have people like Greg willing to use Lithium Orotate, or are offering it to him, to treat bipolar — when there is absolutely no proof of its effectiveness in doing any good, whatsoever, is just insane.

    *…stick to joint therapy.

  • 147. Dr Mark Millar  |  June 10, 2014 at 2:16 am

    Dear Gabriel,

    You are so right the lack of published research for LO is a sad state.

    But check out my E-Book at my website http://www.stopveteransuicides.com
    And read the published data upon the low dose lithium that is so effective for chronic treatment resistant depression
    And then you might understand the breakthrough of LO.

    If you register I will send the book to you for free.

    PS The statement below by Quackwatch is just stupidity

    “…Marketing lithium orotate as a dietary supplement is clearly nonsensical and mendacious, it’s the same drug in lithium orotate as in lithium carbonate, the only possible difference is in how the drug is metabolised in the body.”

  • 148. Gabriel...  |  June 24, 2014 at 5:55 am

    …yes, those crazy ‘Quack Watch’ people. Hey, check it out, here’s another video detailing how insane it is to sell supplements in an unregulated marketplace…

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Hi, I'm James. I'm a 26 year old guy from England with bipolar disorder (currently well controlled). I also have a circadian rhythm sleep disorder (not so well controlled). This blog has charted my journey from mental illness, through diagnosis and, recently, into recovery. It's not always easy, but then, what is?

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As of 12th September 2008 it has been forty five weeks since I quit smoking. So in another seven weeks it'll have been a whole year.

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